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Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

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Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself, I prefer generalist LLMs. Also, the bitter lesson of ML applies.

> I prefer generalist LLMs. No you don't. You personally probably don't need a Pokemon encyclopedia or Bengali spell checking in your daily LLM usage. These are the kinds of things you're paying for when you're using the newer models with huge parameter counts.

while I probably won't need pokemon knowledge from an llm, I still think broad pre-training enables unpredictable cross-domain knowledge transfer - seemingly irrelevant data can contribute to reasoning abilities that improve specialized tasks. and most developers work across domains anyway, so better to start general and post-train than lose emergent capabilities from narrow foundations.

even within 'coding' there's huge breadth. you might need to understand database schemas, api documentation, domain-specific algorithms, legacy system constraints, or business logic from completley different industries. a narrowly-tuned model might excel at leetcode problems but struggle when you need to build a financial trading system or whatever.

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't throw away dams, bridges, factories, submarines, planes. There is a lot of man made stuff you just cannot easily replace. Instead, we maintain it. Remember, _this is not about you_. The post is about qemu. I would argue that qemu is analogous to one of these pieces of infrastructure. There is only a handful of powerful virtual machines. These are _not_ easily replaceable commodities.

> You don't throw away dams, bridges, factories, submarines, planes. You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options. Maintenance involves replacing parts that are broken or are approaching the end of their service period. (Infrastructure in some places is also special because it's so badly funded it's not maintained at all, but that's out of scope of this analogy). > Remember, _this is…

> You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options.

You don't build these parts in assembly lines. They're often not cheap commodities.

Satellites, for example, are full of parts made by hand because no assembly line can handle the requirements.

These, require specialized troubleshooting (debugging).

If you're talking exclusively about the cheap stuff (trivial programs), you're in the wrong thread (arguibly, the wrong website). We gave you a little space, but that's a courtesy that other environments might not extend.

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#393

Open source and libre/free software are particularly vulnerable to a future where AI-generated code is ruled to be either infringing or public domain. In the former case, disentangling AI-edits from human edits could tie a project up in legal proceedings for years and projects don't have any funding to fight a copyright suit. Specifically, code that is AI-generated and subsequently modified or incorporated in the res…

People sometimes miss that copyleft is powered by copyright. Copyleft (which means Linux, Blender, and plenty of other goodness) needs the ability to impose some rules on what users do with your work, presumably in the interest of common good. Such ability implies IP ownership. This does not mean that powerful interests abusing copyright with ever increasing terms and enforcement overreach is fair game. It harms comm…

> People sometimes miss that copyleft is powered by copyright.

That is legally true, but it is also true that copyleft is necessary because of copyright. Without copyright (or if copyright did not apply to software) there would be no need for copyleft and very little motive to produce proprietary software. What was produced could be reverse engineered, or used a binary blobs, and compatible replacements produced.

Where the only choice was keeping the source code a trade secret and obfuscating the distributed form or keep source open the latter would easily dominate.

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#394
I was literally musing on a parallel subject yesterday morning, how engineers kinda did it to themselves with Open Source, LLM Code generators would probably not be possible without the large corpus of totally available (readable) lines of mostly valid code hosted in places like github.com .

It strikes me that Open Source was inevitable as companies and engineers found it economical (a good choice) to amortize the cost of building something across many of them, without as much legality/negotiation/constraints as if they did so in a closed source way collectively. It was kinda a sort of good will community thing. For FOSS, in the case of companies by not competing on things like a javascript framework, and instead on the product features themselves. Or, in the case of engineers by allowing themselves access to that same code across many employers.

Now that gambit is approaching the point where most projects which could be assembled by entirely FOSS (lots of it) is becoming easier and easier to generate. It'd take a 20(?) person team of expensive nerds weeks/months to build a website in 1995, but now a normal individual can simply ask for a website to be made by an LLM.

Across my ~30 years in software (eep), it seems that the table stakes for the minimum viable software keeps just growing and growing-- It used to be a push to have an API, now its minimum viable, it used to be a push to get "live" notificatoins (via polling!) now its minimum viable to push via websockets. Etc etc for the surviving set of features.

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#395
post #276
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> #2 Software projects that somehow are 100% human developed will not be competitive with AI assisted or written projects Still waiting to see evidence of AI-driven projects eating the lunch of "traditional" projects.

How can you tell which project is which? I mean, sure, there's plenty of devs who refuse to use AI, but how many projects rather than individuals are in each category? And is Microsoft "traditional"? I name them specifically because their CEO claims 20-30% of their new code is AI generated: https://techcrunch.com/2025/04/29/microsoft-ceo-says-up-to-3...

He's the CEO of a large corporation. You have to allow for the significant possibility that he's either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about.

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#396
post #63

Open source and libre/free software are particularly vulnerable to a future where AI-generated code is ruled to be either infringing or public domain. In the former case, disentangling AI-edits from human edits could tie a project up in legal proceedings for years and projects don't have any funding to fight a copyright suit. Specifically, code that is AI-generated and subsequently modified or incorporated in the res…

I understand what experienced developers don't want random AI contributions from no-knowledge "developers" contributing to a project. In any situation, if a human is review AI code line by line that would tie up humans for years, even ignoring anything legally. #1 There will be no verifiable way to prove something was AI generated beyond early models. #2 Software projects that somehow are 100% human developed will no…

I guess the AI-fueled demise of left-pad is inevitable then. AI will be able to produce superior versions in no time at all

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#397
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you tell which project is which? I mean, sure, there's plenty of devs who refuse to use AI, but how many projects rather than individuals are in each category? And is Microsoft "traditional"? I name them specifically because their CEO claims 20-30% of their new code is AI generated: https://techcrunch.com/2025/04/29/microsoft-ceo-says-up-to-3...

He's the CEO of a large corporation. You have to allow for the significant possibility that he's either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sure. But what's the alternative way of finding out?

Most (perhaps all) places I've worked have had NDAs, which means statements like this are one of the few ways most of us find out what companies like MS are doing internally.

The only other ways I can think of are when hackers leak their entire commit history, or if a court case reveals it. (I don't expect a whistleblower to do so unless they're also triggering one of those other two categories).

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#398
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't debug AI-generated code - you throw the problematic chunk away and have AI write it again, and if that doesn't help, you repeat the process, possibly with larger chunks. Okay, not in every case, but in many, and that's where we're headed. The reason is economics - i.e. the same reason approximately no one in the West repairs their clothes or appliances; they just throw the damaged thing away and buy a new o…

> the same reason approximately no one in the West repairs their clothes or appliances; they just throw the damaged thing away and buy a new one. And how is that turning out for us? We have a climate crisis which is already causing immense destruction and deaths and will only get worse. I’m not sure you could’ve picked a worse argument, you’re refuting your own point.

What do the environmental impacts of physical manufacturing have to do with digital goods? The status quo you're objecting to arose specifically because it is cheaper. His argument is sound.

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't throw away dams, bridges, factories, submarines, planes. You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options. Maintenance involves replacing parts that are broken or are approaching the end of their service period. (Infrastructure in some places is also special because it's so badly funded it's not maintained at all, but that's out of scope of this analogy). > Remember, _this is…

> You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options. You don't build these parts in assembly lines. They're often not cheap commodities. Satellites, for example, are full of parts made by hand because no assembly line can handle the requirements. These, require specialized troubleshooting (debugging). If you're talking exclusively about the cheap stuff (trivial programs), you're in the wro…

Satellites are the most extreme of edge cases. The equivalent might be a binary that gets burned into a ROM chip installed in an impossible to access location. QEMU is not that.

Granted I don't think something as specialized as QEMU is well suited to a component replacement model. But large parts of the codebases of the vast majority of software out there is.

Re: Define policy forbidding use of AI code generators

#400
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started seeing this at work with coworkers using LLMs to generate code reviews. They submit comments which are way above their skill level which almost trick you in to thinking they are correct since only a very skilled developer would make these suggestions. And then ultimately you end up wasting tons of time proving how these suggestions are wrong. Spending far more time than the person pasting the suggestions…

By far the largest review-effort PRs of my career have been in the past year, due to mid-sized LLM-built features. Multiple rounds of other signoffs saying "lgtm" with only minor style comments only for me to finally read it and see that no, it is not even remotely acceptable and we have several uses built by the same team that would fail immediately if it was merged, to say nothing of the thousands of other users th…

> saying "lgtm"

This took like an entire minute before I figured out it meant "looks good to me". It's too strongly "let's GoToMeeting" in my head, which would have implied "we need to talk about how bad this is", the opposite of what you meant.

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