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Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

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Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#391

Post by oblio »

pydry wrote: post #267
mopsi wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. And the fear of Poland made the Nazis invade Poland, right? Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way, but that was far from the truth. Much like Nazis had to stage a Polish attack on German radio station[1] to justify their invasion of Poland, the USSR had to fabricate the shelling of Mainila[2] to justify the invasion of Fin…

No. The closest living analog to the Nazis today is our allies in Israel and like the Nazis they arent shy about endless expansionism for the sake of creating lebensraum for their ubermensch. Theyre not very shy about the holocaust theyre committing either. Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate. The biggest western geopolitical mistake of the 2020s is assuming th…

> Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#392

Post by vintermann »

jcranmer wrote: post #293
vintermann wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're really saying here, is that Russians are fundamentally different people than you, because they fall for any dumb propaganda, whereas you don't. Or maybe you accept that you are human too, vulnerable to the same thing, and maybe you are the brainwashed one, but you don't care? Going down either of these roads ends you up with the neonazis in the long run (and yes, Russia has a lot of them too). So no, it's…

> What you're really saying here, is that Russians are fundamentally different people than you, because they fall for any dumb propaganda, whereas you don't. No, I don't read that at all. There's plenty of Russian propaganda that Westerners have fallen for hook, line, and sinker, chief among them the idea that all Russian speakers are actually Russian and want to be a part of the Russia. The point is that the propaga…

> No, I don't read that at all. There's plenty of Russian propaganda that Westerners have fallen for hook, line, and sinker, chief among them the idea that all Russian speakers are actually Russian and want to be a part of the Russia.

Oh yeah, other westerners, but not you. You take the foreign policy think tank line that Russians actually want to be balkanized. Just after saying that Putin has succeeded in brainwashing the population to go along with whatever he wants without need for excuses based on good points.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#393

Post by oblio »

pydry wrote: post #212
StefanBatory wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis. ... or maybe because Fins got invaded by Soviets.

They didnt stop being allied to the Nazis after the winter war was over. Fear maintained that alliance. Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. It's fear all the way down. The only difference is the validity of those fears. Obviously your country's enemies' fears were always invalid while your country's allies' fears were always justified.

> Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place.

Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Romania in 1940? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Poland in 1939? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade the Baltics in 1940?

Ah, now I remember, the "fear" of not being the premier colonial power.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#394

Post by oblio »

pydry wrote: post #333
StefanBatory wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a mystery why all neighbours of Russia hate Russia and Russians. If only there was a reason for this.

I can name about 8 who dont. The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it. It's more of mystery why particular kinds of westerners are especially sanctimonious about Moscow while bending over backwards to excuse nearly identical behavior from the west.

> The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it.

Quick essay for 20 points, those countries all decided to join NATO BEFORE Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan.

WHY did they decide to try to join NATO? Who were they running away from and why?

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#395

Post by fuddy »

hedora wrote: post #282
PaulRobinson wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An impressive feat, that is unlikely unachievable on a modern train network. The tolerances are just a bit tighter, the risks and liabilities are higher, and the workforce just isn't "there" - this is from a time when rail was a huge money earner and could afford to employ a huge number of people. Today? Not so much, pretty much anywhere in the World.

In the US, rail tolerances seem to be getting looser over time, and derailments are still uncommon. I’d guess that overseas modern non-high speed trains could deal with it. The passengers might not put up with it though.

A country that would put up with US rail is a big ask.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#396

Post by Qwertious »

jabl wrote: post #44
thih9 wrote: post #3

> will cost billions of euros, affect more than 9,200 km of track, and take decades How is a change like this going to be implemented? E.g. are they going to mainly update some tracks everywhere (and have two systems running in parallel), or all tracks in selected areas (and have passengers change), or something else? Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?

In 1886 the USA switched the rail gauge of the southern states to standard gauge. Most of the work was done over two days. http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8/gauge.html Obviously doing this today would be a much more complicated affair, considering the much higher speeds and weights of contemporary trains.

Most of the work was not done over two days, it says they did a bunch of prep work before the two days to minimize the downtime, and besides being done within two years they didn't specify how long the prep work.

As the Finns will presumably not permit Russia to do prep work on the rails in advance of their invasion, they'll have to do all that prep work after the invasion. The article doesn't say how long that two years of prep would actually take if needed ASAP, but if it would take a month then the Finns would have a huge boon.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#397

Post by paddy_m »

celticninja wrote: post #385
paddy_m wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trent and a lot of Ukranian war commentators have a habit of saying $X is catastrophic for the Russians (this is the worst on YouTube). Then those catastrophic things don't come to pass. Related, I have seen one guy, over and over say "Why isn't Ukraine hitting Russian electric train transformer stations". I don't have a good answer, most of Russia's rail network is electric, transformers blow up easily, there are ma…

Yeah sure, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the Russians do not use pallets for logistics and therefore struggle with logistics as a result. So I stand by my statement that his assessment is not wrong, even if it isn't as outcome changing as some may hope. It is however one of the many straws heaped upon the camel's back. As for the transformer issue, I would imagine that these are somewhat related. Their…

Crippling the Russian train system would be very much worth it. Russia would have to switch to limited diesel locomotives, and it would really hurt regular civilian logistics in those areas.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#398

Post by firesteelrain »

rz2k wrote: post #335
firesteelrain wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was 20 years after the Civil War. It consisted mostly of skilled and semi-skilled workers laborers that were White, African American and other immigrant labor. Chinese laborers were mostly concentrated in the West not the South. The reconstruction of the southern rail network involved many people who were part of the Southern economy and employment structure at that time

1886 is after The Compromise of 1877 which ended Reconstruction and lead to the rise of largely white supremacist Redeemer governments. Though versions of the Convict Lease System had started earlier, even before the Civil War, it was in full force by 1886 and even accounted for a significant portion of many states’ annual revenue. The supply of this labor was dramatically influenced by new laws that were selectively…

Ah yes, the 'absurdity' of enforcing laws and contracts; how dare a post-war society try to reestablish order without the constant supervision of federal troops. And of course, 'insulting gestures' clearly the backbone of any sinister system of oppression. It's amazing anything functioned at all without a daily constitutional check-in from the moral high ground

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#399

Post by yencabulator »

euroderf wrote: post #359
StefanBatory wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis. ... or maybe because Fins got invaded by Soviets.

When speaking to Americans, I explain the wartime co-operation between Finland and Germany as, "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my 'friend', but we can do business."

I'd go with "Otherwise they would have attacked us also, and we definitely couldn't afford a war on two fronts."

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#400

Post by paddy_m »

wkat4242 wrote: post #382
paddy_m wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trent and a lot of Ukranian war commentators have a habit of saying $X is catastrophic for the Russians (this is the worst on YouTube). Then those catastrophic things don't come to pass. Related, I have seen one guy, over and over say "Why isn't Ukraine hitting Russian electric train transformer stations". I don't have a good answer, most of Russia's rail network is electric, transformers blow up easily, there are ma…

Transformers are not very hard to replace or make though. All they are is some copper wound around iron. It will just be some added frustration and annoyance for them but no gamechanger. If they start doing it a lot Russia will just build a bigger electrical workforce and more backstock. They have plenty of people and the authorianism to make them do whatever they want. It's just a pissing contest. Russia did lots of…

Russia is importing shells from North Korea. Transformers are more complex than you give them credit for, and Russia has a very limited ability to manufacture anything, it would make a difference.
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