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The hidden cost of AI coding

terriblesoftware.org

391–400 of 475 posts

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love programming > Other people see all that as an means to an end I think it's worth pointing out that most people are both these things at different times. There's things I care about and want a deep understanding of but there's plenty of tasks I want to just "go away". If I had an junior coder - I'd be delegating these. Instead I use AI when I can. There's also tasks where I want a jump start. I pref…

You likely don’t have a say in the matter, but you should have a junior developer. That’s where senior developers come from.

Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real?

As a manager, say I do hire a junior developer, invest time into them and they level up. I go to the HR department and tell them that they deserve a 30% raise to bring them inline with the other mid level developers.

The HR department is going to say that’s out of policy and then the developer jumps ship.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You likely don’t have a say in the matter, but you should have a junior developer. That’s where senior developers come from.

Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real? As a manager, say I do hire a junior developer, invest time into them and they level up. I go to the HR department and tell them that they deserve a 30% raise to bring them inline with the other mid level developers. The HR department is g…

> Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real?

The tragedy of the commons in a nutshell. Maybe everyone should invest in junior developers so that everyone has mid-level developers to poach later?

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#393

Most comments here surprise me: I am using Githubs Copilot / ChatGPT 4.0 at work with a code base which is mostly implements a basic CRUD service... and outside of small/trivial example (where the generated code is mostly okay), prompting is more often than not a total waste of time. Now, I wonder if I am just totally unable to write/refine good prompts for the LLM (as it works for smaller samples, I hope I am not to…

Same here. We have a massive codebase with large classes and the LLMs are not very helpful. Frontend stuff is okay sometimes but the backend models are too complex at this point, I guess.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much like creating programs. The code is a tool. Nothing more. I love the shed I built for my family. I don’t have a single feeling for the hammer I used to build it. For the record: I can sing well. I just can’t sound like Tony Rice. I don’t have his vocal cords or training.

I enjoy using tools to create, very much so. The process is fun to me. The thing I create is a record of the process/ work that went into it. Planning and making a cut with a circular saw feels good. Rattling a spray paint can is exciting. I made a cyber deck several months back, and I opted to carve the case from wood rather than 3d printing or using a premade shell. That hands-on work is something I'm proud of. I d…

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Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#395
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real? As a manager, say I do hire a junior developer, invest time into them and they level up. I go to the HR department and tell them that they deserve a 30% raise to bring them inline with the other mid level developers. The HR department is g…

> Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real? The tragedy of the commons in a nutshell. Maybe everyone should invest in junior developers so that everyone has mid-level developers to poach later?

Not only that but teaching is a fantastic way to learn. Its easy to miss the learning though because you get the most when you care. If you care you take time to think and you're forced to contend with things you've taken for granted. You're forced to revisit the things you've tabled because you didn't have the time or expertise to deal with it at the time.

There's no doubt about it, there's selfish reasons to teach, mentor, and have a junior under you. We're social creatures. It should be no surprise that what's good for the group is usually good for yourself too. It's kinda as if we were evolutionarily designed to be this way or something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Everyone says they don't have time, but you get a lot of time by doing things right instead of doing things twice. And honestly, we're doing it a lot more than twice.

I just don't understand why we're so ready and willing to toss away a skill that allowed us to become the most successful creature on the planet: forethought. It's not just in coding but we're doing it everywhere. Maybe we're just overloaded but you need forethought to fix that, not progressively going fast for the sake of going fast

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Play with Cursor or Claude Code a bit and then make a decision. I am not on the this is going to replace Devs boat, but this has changed the way I code and approach things.

Could you perhaps point me to a youtube video which demonstrates an experienced prompter sculpting code with Cursor/Clause Code? In my search I just found trivial examples. My critic so far: - Examples seem always to be creating a simple application from scratch - Examples always use super common things (like create a blog / simple website for CRUD) What I would love to see (see elsewhere): Adding a non trivial featu…

This morning I made this while sipping coffee, and it solves a real problem for my gf: https://github.com/kirubakaran/xmldiffer Sure it's not enormous, and it was built from scratch, but imho it's not a trivial thing either. It would've taken me at least a day or two of full time work, and I certainly don't have a couple of days to spare on a task like this. Instead, pair programming with AI made it into a fun relaxing activity.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#397
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real? The tragedy of the commons in a nutshell. Maybe everyone should invest in junior developers so that everyone has mid-level developers to poach later?

Not only that but teaching is a fantastic way to learn. Its easy to miss the learning though because you get the most when you care. If you care you take time to think and you're forced to contend with things you've taken for granted. You're forced to revisit the things you've tabled because you didn't have the time or expertise to deal with it at the time. There's no doubt about it, there's selfish reasons to teach,…

I’m not a manager by the way, my previous comment was more of a devil’s advocate/hypothetical question.

I leveled up because I practice mentoring others. But it still doesn’t make sense for the organization to hire juniors. Yes I realize someone has to. It’s especially true for managers who have an open req to fill because they need work done now.

On the other hand, my one, only and hopefully last role in BigTech where I worked previously, they could afford to have an intern program and when they came back after college have a 6 month early career/career transition program to get them up to speed. They could afford the dead weight loss.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you perhaps point me to a youtube video which demonstrates an experienced prompter sculpting code with Cursor/Clause Code? In my search I just found trivial examples. My critic so far: - Examples seem always to be creating a simple application from scratch - Examples always use super common things (like create a blog / simple website for CRUD) What I would love to see (see elsewhere): Adding a non trivial featu…

This morning I made this while sipping coffee, and it solves a real problem for my gf: https://github.com/kirubakaran/xmldiffer Sure it's not enormous, and it was built from scratch, but imho it's not a trivial thing either. It would've taken me at least a day or two of full time work, and I certainly don't have a couple of days to spare on a task like this. Instead, pair programming with AI made it into a fun relaxi…

I am happy to read your success story with LLM and thanks for sharing.

Fully agreed, that LLMs/assisted coding is nice for these kind of contained tasks.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but teaching is a fantastic way to learn. Its easy to miss the learning though because you get the most when you care. If you care you take time to think and you're forced to contend with things you've taken for granted. You're forced to revisit the things you've tabled because you didn't have the time or expertise to deal with it at the time. There's no doubt about it, there's selfish reasons to teach,…

I’m not a manager by the way, my previous comment was more of a devil’s advocate/hypothetical question. I leveled up because I practice mentoring others. But it still doesn’t make sense for the organization to hire juniors. Yes I realize someone has to. It’s especially true for managers who have an open req to fill because they need work done now . On the other hand, my one, only and hopefully last role in BigTech wh…

  > a devil’s advocate/hypothetical question.
Can I suggest you not do this? It's not a good way to communicate and more often than not causes arguing. I think it is the first sentence which does the framing, making it less clear that the second is a legitimate question and not a rhetorical one. (It very much reads as rhetorical)

I'm not saying "don't ask questions." We should all be asking questions! If anything, we should be asking more! But we're in a thread that's contextualized about a division of people. It is only natural for people to interpret as a continuation of what came before.

But to address your point more directly, my answer is that the scenario you presented would be a surefire way to kill a company. Yes, there are big companies that do this, but you'll recognize that they're also monopolies or close it. A company with competition (big or small) is unable to pull off such shortsightedness. What you do for the company is the same thing you do for society: invest in the future. Sure, you wanna be lean and cost efficient but that has to be balanced with security. You don't want your company to go under just because an employee got hit by a truck. You don't want your company to go under just because an employee decides to retire. You're not doing a good job if you have these vulnerabilities. These are things only small startups should be doing and only because they have no choice.

This isn't "dead weight" and I think it is really bad to frame things this way. Most of the time my firewall isn't doing anything, is it "dead weight"? I often buy stocks while markets are low or falling, are these "dead weight"? I went to school to get an education, was this "dead weight"? It would be silly to call any of those things "dead weight", yet they're identical. A "dead weight" employee is one who has the ability to do but does not. It is the person who gets promoted by being performative, by being close to the manager, by looking like they are doing work more than they are. There's a lot of dead weight in companies, and they stick around because they look like they're useful. And conversely, some of your best workers often look like your worst[0].

It is literally Goodhart's Law in action and what I'm pissed about is we as a society have identified this issue and decided "it is a feature, not a bug" despite all the evidence to the contrary. We've dropped so many sayings and cliques that were common and were warnings of enshitification. When was the last time you heard someone say "you get what you pay for"? Or "if you're gonna do something, do it right"? We normalized the work environment of a fucking Dilbert Comic. And here we are, in this thread, defending our Dilbert world. We could have a lot of nice things, but the inescapable truth is that nice things require work. Worse, I'm tired of living in an environment where all the little issues I face in daily life that can easily be fixed are causally brushed away because "it doesn't create value" while we dump billions into the next vaporware. It is deadly irony and I cannot stand this double speak. I just want to make things that work... You'll say "I'm not stopping you" but every person that frames things like above creates a system that does prevent me (and many others). While it isn't a zero sum game, we sure have limited resources and we're all too happy to light them on fire when promised some magic beans. I don't understand why no matter how many times we watch it happen we still do not learn.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43452649

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're robbing yourself. Of course, it all depends how you use the LLM. While the same can be true for StackOverflow, the LLMs just scale the issues up. > The rest is boiler plate, cargo-culted, Dockerfile, build system and bash environment variable passing circle of hell that I really could care less about. Except you do care. It's why you're frustrated and annoyed. And good!!! That feeling is because what y…

I share the same opinion. While it looks like a productivity boost, there's a clear price to pay. The more you use it, the less you learn and the less you are able to assess quality.

Worse, it feels productive. But I'd bet if you watched the clock and tracked progress of a non-trivial project, you'd find what we've always known to be true: there are no shortcuts.

I'm sure it's faster in the short term. Just like copy-paste-from-stack-overflow is. But it is debt. The shit builds and builds. But I think the problem is we're so surrounded by shit we've just normalized it. It is incredible how much bloat and low hanging fruit there is that can be cheaply resolved but there is no will to. And in my experience, it isn't just a lack of will, it is a lack of recognition. If the engineers can't recognize shit, then how do we build anything better? It is literally our job to find problems

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