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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#391

Post by bombcar »

nejsjsjsbsb wrote: post #243
throwawayk7h wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That castle was found to be more cost-effective than any other space the group could have purchased, for the simple reason that almost nobody wants castles anymore. It was chosen because it was the best calculation; the optics of it were not considered. It would be less disingenuous if you were to say EA is the "it's objectively better for humanity if you give us money to buy a conference space in France than whateve…

Why buy a conference space. Most pubs will give you a seperate room if you promise to spend some money at the bar. There are probably free spaces had they researched. If I am donating money and you are buying a conference space on day 1 I'd want it to be filled with experienced ex-UN field type of people and Nobel peace prize winners. Otherwise it looks like a grift.

Somewhere between “once a year” conferences hosted at hotels and the continual conferences of a university lies the point where buying a building makes sense.

The biggest downside, of course, is all your conferences are now in the same location

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#393

Post by larsiusprime »

concordDance wrote: post #302
__turbobrew__ wrote: post #189

This whole rabbit hole of rationalism, less wrong, and ziz feels like a fever dream to me. Roaming trans veganist tatical death squads shooting border officers and stabbing 80 year olds with swords. This is the kind of thing where it is warranted that the feds gets every single wiretap, interception, and surveillance possible on everyone involved in the zizian movement.

Conflating ziz and less wrong feels a bit like conflating Aiden Hale with the LGBTQ movement or the Branch Davidians with Christianity.

Or even just the Branch Davidians and the seventh day adventists, of whom the branch Davidians were an offshoot.

I’ve read a couple rationalist blogs for over a decade and this past week is the first I’ve ever heard of these “Zizians”

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#394

Post by adastra22 »

mcguire wrote: post #370
zozbot234 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "rationalists". Sounds like they have some sort of superiority complex Oh yes, this is totally a thing. They're also weirdly obsessed with I.Q. comparisons. They're the kind of community where you might actually witness someone talking about "High I.Q." and "Low I.Q." individuals - and making a claim like "my I.Q. is one of the highest", way before someone else made that cool.

So, like Hacker News?

Never seen that happen here.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#395

Post by adastra22 »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #342
snickerbockers wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering if it's relevant that so many of them are young people with "data science" degrees and they call themselves "rationalists". Sounds like they have some sort of superiority complex that might make them more susceptible to justifying acts of violence when it's "rational".

Perhaps. Rationalists are also known for updating[changing] their beliefs. They do this under the guise of "doing" Bayesian reasoning. It may be that susceptibility to cults is an edge case of this meta-congnitive position. Or in other words, stubbornness of beliefs may be a defense mechanism against cults.

They are known for “updating” their beliefs to crazy things, and discounting evidence in front of their face based on abstract arguments.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#396

Post by Muromec »

kurikuri wrote: post #386
all2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any evil one trans person does, is used to stain all trans people. recognize this tendency; don't let this become like blood libel. As a Christian, I can empathize. The wrongs and hypocrisies of so many are heaped on those who have no relation to the actions.

[flagged]

Majority is the new marginalized minority it seems.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#397

Post by fsckboy »

kurikuri wrote: post #386
all2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any evil one trans person does, is used to stain all trans people. recognize this tendency; don't let this become like blood libel. As a Christian, I can empathize. The wrongs and hypocrisies of so many are heaped on those who have no relation to the actions.

[flagged]

that's not what equivocate means; I think you mean equating

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#398

Post by grumple »

sam345 wrote: post #194

Doesn't sound rationalist to me (from Ziz quoted section of article linked below): "Ziz Impostors keep thinking it's safe to impersonate single goods. A nice place to slide in psyche/shadow, false faces, "who could ever falsify that I'm blaming it on my headmate!" Saying you're single good is saying, "Help, I have a Yeerk in my head that's a mirror image of me. I need you to surgically destroy it, even if I'm then cr…

This Ziz person is really unhinged. I read some of their writing, it reminds me of every eloquent, manipulative narcissist I've met. They are never as smart as they think they are - or as smart as they want you to think they are - though they may be smart, charming, and engaging. They've created an alternate universe in their mind and haphazardly abuse whatever ideas they've encountered to justify it.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#399

Post by mindslight »

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #321
mindslight wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was quite easy to skim over some original source material from both sinceriously.fyi and zizians.info. By my quick reading, and taking a very high level view, the philosophy is responsible for the trans and also for the violence. But an article harping on the correlation as implied causation without focusing on the hidden variable behind them both is just trying to fuel the fire of the reactionary movement. In gen…

That seems like an argument for not ignoring the matter in media that wishes to avoid honing in on the sensitive issue. Now instead of reading an article that integrates but doesn't centre the trans issue, I have read one that doesn't mention it, which I now feel to be dishonest, and one which centres the trans issue above all else, which I view to be biased, but not dishonest. So well done to the authors of the OP,…

Myopic focus is itself a lie of omission (of the larger context), so they're both dishonest. It seems like you're trying to obtain some agency by sorting through political trash, but the best you can get from that is trash. Never wrestle with a pig and all that.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#400

Post by Aurornis »

scarmig wrote: post #205
Aurornis wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weird to see a community I followed show up so close to home and negatively like this. I had some coworkers who were really into LessWrong and rationality. I thought it was fun to read some of the selected writings they would share, but I always felt that online rationalist communities collected a lot of people with reactionary, fascist, misogynistic, and far-right tendencies. There’s a heavily sanitized version of…

It's somewhat odd to represent a community as being right wing when the worst thing to come from it was a trans vegan murder cult. Most "rationalists" vote Democrat, and if the franchise were limited to them, Harris would have won in a 50 state landslide. The complaint here seems to be that rationalists don't take progressive pieties as axiomatic.

> It's somewhat odd to represent a community as being right wing when the worst thing to come from it was a trans vegan murder cult

I was referring to "The Motte", which emerged after the SlateStarCodex subreddit finally banned "culture war" topics. Scott announced it in this post: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/02/22/rip-culture-war-thread...

The Ziz cult did not emerge from The Motte. I don't know why you came to that conclusion.

> Most "rationalists" vote Democrat,

Scott Alexander (of SlateStarCodex) did surveys of his audience. Interestingly, the culture war thread participants were split almost 50:50 between those identifying as left-wing and those identifying as right-wing.

Following the ban on discussion of culture war topics, many of the right-wing participants left for The Motte, which encouraged these conversations.

That's how there came to be a right-wing offshoot of the rationalist community.

The history is all out there. I'm surprised how many people are doubting me about this. You can read the origin story right on Scott's blog, and the Reddit post where they discuss their problems with running afoul of Reddit's content policies (necessitating a move off-platform) is still accessible: https://old.reddit.com/r/TheMotte/comments/uaoyng/meta_like_...

> The complaint here seems to be that rationalists don't take progressive pieties as axiomatic.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not complaining about a refusal to "progressive pieties as axiomatic". I'm relaying history of rationalist communities. It's surprising to see all of the denial about the topic.

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