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Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

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Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#391

Post by sanjams »

eldenring wrote: post #79
dumbmrblah wrote: post #58

Part of the reason their API is so cheap because they explicitly state they are going to train on your API data. Open AI and Claude say they won’t if you use their API (if you use ChatGPT that’s a different story). There are no free lunches.

This comment is misleading. There is a "free lunch" here in the sense that serving this model is far cheaper than worse, open source models at scale. Yes they probably are more willing to go down in price due to this, but the architecture is open, and they are charging similarly to a 30B-50B dense model, which is about how many active params deepseek-v3 has.

So then OP is correct? Your comment confirms the same sentiment about the tradeoff API users make: cheaper inference means you pay with your data.

Sure Deepseek may publish their weights so you dont have to use the API, but the point still stands for the API.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#392

Post by danenania »

vkou wrote: post #267
lolinder wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I edited my comment to ask this as the conclusion: > Why is a wet market a more convincing explanation than a lab whose explicit mission is studying coronaviruses, one which has been publicly called out for being uncooperative with the ensuing investigation? It's possible that the widespread belief in this explanation is a failure in science communication and there's a good reason for this, but it's not a fail…

I don't think the desire to see the conspiracy and not the boring, mundane explanation is a failure of communication, scientific thinking, or critical reasoning skills. I think it's simply the consequences of politically motivated reasoning. (At least, for people who have spent much time thinking about it.) > I've yet to see anyone effectively communicate why the intuitively more probable answer is the less probable…

Another explanation could be detection bias: it was tracked to the market not because it originated there, but because vastly more resources have been expended on investigating the market compared to any other place in the city.

You’re assuming “it was tracked to there” = “it originated there” but that’s a big leap.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#393

Post by cess11 »

jki275 wrote: post #265
cess11 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Testament has similar passages. One of the most well known has Jesus attacking pilgrims and money changers in the temple. John is rather obviously antijewish. "I have not come with peace" is another well known, not very palatable one.

That's a significant misunderstanding of the NT. Jesus drove the money changers out of the Temple, because they were violating the Temple with their presence and their actions -- preying on poor people there. Jesus' primary message was love (Love thy neighbor as thyself), peace, and the path to righteousness (Sell all your goods, give them to the poor, and follow me -- no man comes to the Father but through me). The…

Attacking jewish pilgrims and people offering them services seems pretty antijewish regardless of how you want to justify it.

Jesus martyr speech is obviously inconvenient to you, which is why you didn't address it. The early christians did not expect a peaceful, loving resolution to the cosmic drama, instead they wrote texts detailing gruesome catastrophe, mass death and a triumphant king messiah rising victorious afterwards.

The view you have is distinctly modern, extremely protestant. Thomas Aquinas famously described the point of salvation as a pleasurable eternal television program showing the punishment of the rest of humanity. Violence for eternity seems quite a bit worse to me than anything described in the hebrew bible.

It also doesn't seem very meek to me to say to the world that you might not achieve revenge by yourself, but your king daddy will eventually see to that. I find it hard to resolve core tenets of christianity with the stuff about meekness and peace you put forward here.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#395

Post by cess11 »

churchill wrote: post #256
cess11 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Testament has similar passages. One of the most well known has Jesus attacking pilgrims and money changers in the temple. John is rather obviously antijewish. "I have not come with peace" is another well known, not very palatable one.

LMAO - you need to rehearse your lines better. Can't even make a coherent refutation of John's supposed antisemitism.

Would be very controversial and groundbreaking if you could.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_and_the_New_Tes...

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#396

Post by bobxmax »

yoavm wrote: post #354
Bilal_io wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The sins mentioned here are among the many sins that the Jews committed, which caused them to be cursed and removed far away from right guidance. The Jews broke the promises and vows that Allah took from them", "their hearts are sealed because of their disbelief", "their hearts became accustomed to Kufr, transgression and weak faith" - the list is long. All of this is specific to individuals who have transgressed…

This is getting a little ridiculous... Your question was what parts of the Quran could be considered controversial. I'm really not looking for religious explanations. If you cannot see why having a text that says Jews committed crimes and are cursed, even if it's actually about some very specific Jews in the past, then I guess we don't agree on the definition of "controversial".

I don't think you know what anti-semitic means. That passage is talking about a very specific group of people and what happened to them. It has nothing to do with Jews in general as a race/people. Just because a sentence has the word "Jew" in it and isn't wildly positive doesn't automatically make it anti-semitic.

There are other parts where it talks about Arabs who transgressed and were cursed - is the Qur'an now anti-Arab?

Unfortunately this is the Islamophobic disinformation that's spread, primarily from 2 countries (Israel and India), and people like you happily parrot. I suspect this is because unlike Judaism, criticizing Islam/Muslims is socially acceptable.

And again, nothing you said remotely compares to the Torah which calls for child rape, infanticide and genocide. Which was the point of my original comment.

Agnostic West African with a partial doctorate in scriptural studies btw.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#397

Post by bobxmax »

corimaith wrote: post #320
bobxmax wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. That's the best example - completely inundated with government propaganda, and yet millions of people are freely consuming it daily and shaping their world view around it. When you look at Reddit CEO's board affiliations, it starts to become clear this is not accidental.

It's funny how a poster talking about Westerners are completely inundated with propaganda has made previous comments such as: "The Chinese government treated the pandemic as a bioweapon attack by a foreign adversary engaged in a broader hybrid war, and it did so effectively"

I don't know what you're talking about.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#398

Post by seanmcdirmid »

janalsncm wrote: post #341
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The factor was calling the economy a bad economy, they are already backtracking on promises since the economy is doing pretty well already and they won’t be able to juice it much more. Anyone who thinks 49.9% of the vote (vs 48.4%) is a landslide will quickly find them in negative approval ratings if they think that gives them much political capital (if trump focuses and spending rather than earning capital, that is,…

I think the problems with the economy (consolidation, corporate/private equity power, general inequality) are too big for any administration to fix even assuming they would want to. But yeah GDP and unemployment rate are fairly misleading metrics.

The biggest problem is inequality, but Trump is the last person in the world who would address that, so the metrics he has focused: pricing, stock markets, unemployment, are going to be very hard to move up (and retire easy to move down). It’s going to be hard next four years unless he somehow doesn’t do what he says he is going to do.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#399

Post by jorvi »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #364
jorvi wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re conveniently leaving out that that China is still a middle-income country. It can bear the burden of developing and producing things like solar panels or batteries or AI because of the sheer size of the population, but that doesn’t work if the population itself is the problem.

Conveniently? "The population itself" won't be a serious problem for a long time, which was my point. Besides, with ~1.4B people, China has a very deep population reservoir. Even with a catastrophically low birthrate in 2023, there were more than 9M births. That's about as much, in that year, as the US, Japan, South Korea, Germany, France, England, Mexico, Canada, and Spain combined. (3.5M+.8M+.23M+.7M+.7M+.56M+1.8M+…

> Conveniently? "The population itself" won't be a serious problem for a long time, which was my point.

You are deeply, deeply misunderstanding the problem.

Maybe when Western-oriented, China would have been able to escape the middle-income tier despite their demographic trends. But with the dual gut punch of being excised from Western technology and an economy that will be in a tar pit due to growth crashes (real estate bubble for example), no chance in hell.

Don't get me wrong. It's amazing how many people China has lifted out of poverty. And yes, they do take "100 steps forward" for every "2 steps forward, 1 step back" that the West does. But this is because they came from very low, where there is no ossified infrastructure and plenty of low-hanging fruit to pick.

For example, being in Shanghai and having nothing but quiet streets because virtually every motor vehicle is electrified feels like being in the future. The same goes for massive amounts of high-speed rail being built per year. But this is possible because A) there is no legacy infrastructure and B) the state can just crush you without any recourse.

It is quite well-known that the more free a nation is, the more it prospers. Make of that what you will.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#400

Post by mistercheph »

mike_hearn wrote: post #30
nsoonhui wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But like I said, deepseek is open source so why can't the competitors copy whatever source that makes the cost of production 10x cheaper ?

You have to distinguish between the current model and DeepSeek the company. DeepSeek the company can do an OpenAI and stop releasing their weights any time they like. The knowledge and skill is retained. I really wonder how long the current era of giving models away for free can last. How is this sensible from a business perspective? Facebook got burned by iOS and now engage in what would otherwise look like irration…

Open models will win, OpenAI and the other regulatory capture gamers that want to hoard their precious will certainly be an interesting footnote for the history books.
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