Live data from Hacker News

Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

quantamagazine.org

391–400 of 419 posts

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#391

Has anyone here self-taught themselves math in later life? I studied up to A level (aged 19) but honestly started hating math aged 16 after previously loving it. It’s a big regret of mine that I fell out of love with it. I self taught myself coding and Spanish and much enjoy self study if I can find the right material. Any suggestions?

Math Academy and (optionally for a deeper study) the Art of Problem Solving books.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#392
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the benefits really just amount to a few units of pre-algebra content, that would be disappointing. They don't though - there are benefits all the way up. Giving a few examples of benefits from low order mathematical thinking (understanding concepts of compounding, etc) does not equal a statement that these are the only benefits.

Great, so what are those benefits all the way up?

At least a finite countable lists worth, there's something for everybody really.

Some of us are satisfied with, say, dimensional reductions of spectral geophysical surveys to improve imaging and train that against existing production records to highlight potential mineral leases.

Others might like to leverage symbolic algebra systems to crack quantum encryption candidates.

A good number like to get rich via high frequency trading, some like to sail satellutes against the magnetic currents of the planet, there's a world of optimisations in logistics that have been implemented and are still being fine tuned to improve throughput efficiency and fuel consumption.

But you're not really asking in good faith here, are you?

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that and I think it's silly. They handwave away why nothing should ever be explained. Wikipedia doesn't work like that for any other topic. You'll see something like a mathematical proof with no explanation and it's end of article. The edit history will have explanations aggressively removed. The equivalent would be the article for say, splay tree, to have no diagrams and just a block of code - feeling no…

I don't know anybody who first learns about new mathematical ideas from Wikipedia. Mathematics is a body of knowledge, not just simple isolated theorems or definitions. You learn new mathematics from textbooks. Even for reference purposes there are often better resources. E.g. proofwiki is usually better for looking up proofs because the proofs and definitions are interconnected.

If I run across a term like "bialgebra" while doing work, I don't always have the leisure time to derail my life and sign up for a 4 month class at a local university. Sometimes, I just need to move on with my task at hand and get something working.

I'm familiar with the mathematician response to this, I've heard it before and I fundamentally disagree with it. At work last week I gave someone a crash course in the simplex method and linear programming in about 30 minutes and it was a good-enough explanation that I came back in a few hours and the code was right.

This isn't impossible. There's just some wild apprehension that I'll never understand which insists everything is a grueling 1,000 hour journey to some kind of valhalla of enlightenment so you can bask in some aesthetic beauty of how perfect math is, as tears drip down from your cheeks, or something like that.

I mean come on now. Sometimes all you want is the cliff notes.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like people mostly living in different bubbles? What do they know about the world? Well, they do know something about math — in particular that it requires a certain "attitude", something that no-one told them about in school and they felt they only discovered by chance. Starting from Descartes and his famous "method", continuing with Newton, Einstein, Grothendieck all these guys insisted that they were spec…

> they do know something about math ... that it requires a certain "attitude" Of course. That does not mean that intelligence doesn't play a (big) role. > Starting from Descartes and his famous "method", continuing with Newton, Einstein, Grothendieck all these guys insisted that they were special because of this "attitude" and not because of what people call "intelligence" That doesn't make sense. Back when they were…

Dear cutemonster,

I know this reply may not suffice to convince you, but unfortunately I won't be able to argue forever.

Did you ever consider the possibility that you might be the one living in a bubble?

FYI, the concept of innate talent predated IQ tests and twin studies by many millenia. Two of the authors I'm citing in my book (Descartes and Grothendieck) believed that innate talent existed and they both declared they would have loved to be naturally gifted like these or these people they knew.

You're declaring that these incredibly smart people were wrong about their own domains, which is a pretty bold claim to make. What do you have in support of this claim? A fake Einstein quote?

It's a sad fact of life that most quotes attributed to Einstein are fabricated. Next time, please check "The Ultimate Quotable Einstein", compiled by Alice Calaprice.

This may come as a shock to you, but Google page 1 isn't always a reliable resource. Nor is Wikipedia, even though it's quite often correct. As it happens, there's a pretty large "Heritability of IQ" bubble on the internet. It's active and vocal, but it's also quite weak scientifically — the page you're citing is a typical symptom, and it absolutely doesn't reflect the current scientific knowledge.

The IQ heritability claims that you're citing are based on twin studies and they have taken in serious beating in the past decade, especially in light of GWAS.

It's true that a number of people have been fooled by twin studies, most notably Steven Pinker, in Chapter 19 of the Blank Slate (did you read it?)

You see, Pinker is a linguist and apparently he isn't mathematically equipped to fully comprehend the intrinsic limitations of Bouchard's approach. Did you read Bouchard's 1990 paper on twins reared apart? Do you find it convincing? Are you aware that even The Bell Curve's Charles Murray thinks that this approach, abundantly cited by Pinker, is structurally flawed? Are you aware of the fundamental instability of IQ estimates based on twins reared together? Aren't you concerned that even a mild violation of Equal Environment Assumption, plugged into Falconer's equation, would drastically reduce the estimates?

If you don't understand what I'm talking about, if you've never read the authors and the primary research I'm citing, then it's quite likely that you're the one living in a social media bubble.

If you're interesting in learning more about the actual science of IQ heritability, I recommend using Sasha Gusev's Substack as an entry point: https://theinfinitesimal.substack.com/p/comments-on-no-intel...

Feel free to also subscribe to my own Substack, where I plan to cover these topics in the coming months: https://davidbessis.substack.com

All the best, David.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anybody who first learns about new mathematical ideas from Wikipedia. Mathematics is a body of knowledge, not just simple isolated theorems or definitions. You learn new mathematics from textbooks. Even for reference purposes there are often better resources. E.g. proofwiki is usually better for looking up proofs because the proofs and definitions are interconnected.

If I run across a term like "bialgebra" while doing work, I don't always have the leisure time to derail my life and sign up for a 4 month class at a local university. Sometimes, I just need to move on with my task at hand and get something working. I'm familiar with the mathematician response to this, I've heard it before and I fundamentally disagree with it. At work last week I gave someone a crash course in the si…

Well, you're comparing a concrete algorithm from applied mathematics (simplex) to a term from abstract algebra. I'm not exactly sure how you'd expect such a general concept to be described. Where in your work do terms like "bialgebra" regularly come up and is "it's some sort of algebraic structure" not enough of an understanding to continue without digging into the details? Maybe your problem is with people who put abstract mathematics into applied material without motivation or explanation and not with research mathematicians themselves?

Would you expect to be able to read the "cliff notes" on French and then be able to read Camus in the original? That's what I mean by "body of knowledge" as opposed to individual facts.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#396
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author (and Grothendieck, liberally quoted in the book) disagree with you. I think the reason you disagree is that it sounds like you’re teaching your child to be good at math class (a perfectly valid and good thing to do). Being good at math class requires being good at rational/logical thinking and computation. It also has only glancing similarities to anything that the author would recognise as mathematics .

>>It also has only glancing similarities to anything that the author would recognise as mathematics. Nah, these are the same things. Trying to make Math look like is for people who are 'geniuses' i.e people with massive capabilities of holding large thought trials and changelogs in their head is how you arrive at making people look stupid doing math and eventually make them hate the subject. Math is paper work. Appro…

Through all of this, don't get me wrong, the rigorous application of rationality that it takes to step-by-step construct a proof is very important and an incredibly useful skill. Also, I agree that basically no-one can hold more than 3 things in their head at once.

The book also agrees vehemently that math is NOT restricted to "geniuses" and even argues that those don't really exist in the way that culture thinks they do.

However! His assertion is that the (to him) tedious, laborious, error-prone, paperwork is not the fundamental output of "doing math". For him, symbolic written mathematics is akin to sheet music. It would in principle be possible to teach students to read and write sheet music and even do manipulations like transposing it to different keys, without ever letting them listen to music. It would be hard and boring. Some students would find the memorization and application of rules satisfying but most would struggle.

In such a classroom, there might be one student who by chance figures out for herself that you can kind of "hear" these symbols in your brain and suddenly all the arbitrary rules seem obvious and natural and she doesn't even have to go through the tedious steps at all to answer questions. "Of course this is in a minor key." she might say. "No, I didn't rigorously check each chord, it's just... obvious".

Such a student would be labeled a "prodigy" or "genius", and would struggle to explain to others that no, what she's doing isn't harder than the her classmates laboriously doing the rote work, it's actually much easier.

Of course... this is not to denigrate sheet music. It's a wonderful invention that makes it possible to transmit music out of one person's brain to the brains of an orchestra.

Just like written mathematics.

The author's contention is that, like the contrived example above, no-one ever talks about "the music" of mathematics, just the sheet music, and therefore things are much harder than they need to be.

One of the simple mathematical examples he uses is to ask: Can you imagine a circle in your head (unironically an amazing thing to be able to do!). Then to ask a question like: Can a straight line intersect a circle in 3 places?

You likely have an immediate, intuitive response to this highly non-trivial mathematical problem. That's the music. Now, try to write that down in mathematical language for someone who can't see circles. Oof, it's going to be a slog.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they do know something about math ... that it requires a certain "attitude" Of course. That does not mean that intelligence doesn't play a (big) role. > Starting from Descartes and his famous "method", continuing with Newton, Einstein, Grothendieck all these guys insisted that they were special because of this "attitude" and not because of what people call "intelligence" That doesn't make sense. Back when they were…

Dear cutemonster, I know this reply may not suffice to convince you, but unfortunately I won't be able to argue forever. Did you ever consider the possibility that you might be the one living in a bubble? FYI, the concept of innate talent predated IQ tests and twin studies by many millenia. Two of the authors I'm citing in my book (Descartes and Grothendieck) believed that innate talent existed and they both declared…

Some of the stuff on Gusev's substack is pretty startling, and I highly recommend it.

Thank you for taking the time to comment here!

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#398
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>It also has only glancing similarities to anything that the author would recognise as mathematics. Nah, these are the same things. Trying to make Math look like is for people who are 'geniuses' i.e people with massive capabilities of holding large thought trials and changelogs in their head is how you arrive at making people look stupid doing math and eventually make them hate the subject. Math is paper work. Appro…

Through all of this, don't get me wrong, the rigorous application of rationality that it takes to step-by-step construct a proof is very important and an incredibly useful skill. Also, I agree that basically no-one can hold more than 3 things in their head at once. The book also agrees vehemently that math is NOT restricted to "geniuses" and even argues that those don't really exist in the way that culture thinks the…

>>Through all of this, don't get me wrong, the rigorous application of rationality

Much of this is just talking to oneself and testing it to see if our idea holds under test conditions.

I was once watching a video on how chess grandmasters think and work. Most of it is-

1. Do we know a pattern of moves, even if done, in series that is known to score some win/check. If so, lets do it.

2. Are any pieces under attack, If gone can effect point 1. eventually? If yes, lets protect them.

3. What can all possible moves of our pieces prevent opponent from having successfully execute their own point 1. And can we force opponent into point 2? Lets do it.

Basically every our move and its possible outcomes(Known through prior study of patterns of previous games seen), every move of our opponent.

A strong internal monologue and testing imaginary moves.

Math is just this except over paper.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they do know something about math ... that it requires a certain "attitude" Of course. That does not mean that intelligence doesn't play a (big) role. > Starting from Descartes and his famous "method", continuing with Newton, Einstein, Grothendieck all these guys insisted that they were special because of this "attitude" and not because of what people call "intelligence" That doesn't make sense. Back when they were…

Current estimates of the "heritability" of intelligence are far, far lower than "0.7 or 0.8"; they're probably below 0.1, and that's before digging into what "heritability" means, which is not generally what people think it does. I'd guess the person you're responding to has thought more carefully about this issue than the median HN commenter has.

> Current estimates of the "heritability" of intelligence are far, far lower than "0.7 or 0.8"; they're probably below 0.1

Sources please, if you have time? I tried to find something supporting what you wrote, but wasn't able to (this far).

Instead I found this from 2015:

Thinking positively: The genetics of high intelligence, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4286575/

They've studied men in Sweden during 40 years. From the abstract:

"We found that high intelligence is familial, heritable, and caused by the same genetic and environmental factors responsible for the normal distribution of intelligence."

"... 360,000 sibling pairs and 9000 twin pairs from 3 million 18-year-old males with cognitive assessments administered as part of conscription to military service in Sweden between 1968 and 2010 ..."

Looking at Figure 3, in that pager, about identical twins and non-identical (two-egg) twins -- I think that settles it for me.

Seems they arrive at a bit above 0.4 as heritability. Yes that's less than 0.7 - 0.8 but I wouldn't say "far far lower", and more than 0.1. Also, they're 18 years old, not adults.

It's been discussed at HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10488998

> I'd guess the person you're responding to has thought more carefully about this issue than the median HN commenter has.

Well, in his reply to me, he was sort of name dropping and appealing to (the wrong) authorities, didn't make a good impression on me. Plus writing about himself, but he's a single person. -- I would have preferred links to research on large numbers of people.

> what "heritability" means, which is not generally what people think it does.

That sounds interesting. Can I guess: You mean that people believe that heritability means how likely a trait is to get inherited from parent to child? When in fact it means: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability) "What is the proportion of the variation in a given trait within a population that is not explained by the environment or random chance?"

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best friend was like that. Couldn't see the practicality until he got bit by a geology and water science bug. He went from calling me to get help figuring out percentages to doing chemistry equations in his head because he "got" the applicability. My brother's mom tutors math. One of her insights with a former student was that they were in need of forming some number sense. She started by walking them both out to…

> For times tables, have you developed any intuition around it? I've tried different approaches. 4x3 being 3x4 But somehow I end up miscounting and giving the answer for 4x4 or be off a digit every-time. A good example was that I was at a brewery last night. They didn't do pint glasses but glasses of: 1/4, 1/2 and 2/3rd's. I thought 1/2 was more than 2/3rd's so I ordered a 1/2 rather than thinking I was getting more.…

What _is_ a fraction to you? How do you visualize it? I didn't calculate to decimal to compare the size of those fractions (I couldn't tell you intuitively if 5/7 is more than 9/13, I would have to convert the denominator or calculate the decimal).

For me, a progress bar or a pizza is the default. And because I cook rice daily and we were talking volume, my "progress bar" was like a measuring cup. Mentally, I can stand two measuring cups next one another, and filling one of two parts is less than filling two of three parts.

Maybe there are ways to be more aware of or insert ways to force the use of fractions in physical space. More cooking, more building, etc. The more comfortable you get the more intuition you should build

Post reply on HN