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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#391

Post by panzagl »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #366
hayd wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats aren’t double taxed but you need to file tax returns to offset taxable income that’s already been taxed. There are specific agreements to avoid double taxation but it’s unclear/unlikely the IRS are just going to hand back money Apple already paid (it likely falls outside of what’s required in those international agreements). Companies, and people, make decisions based on the tax laws of the day eg deciding to…

> Expats aren’t double taxed but you need to file tax returns to offset taxable income that’s already been taxed. This is not correct, it is only practically true in trivial cases. Excess taxation is a very real pain point for Americans living overseas, never mind the other indefensible things the US government does to its expats like FATCA. Many types of income cannot be offset nor or they covered by tax treaties. E…

If you don't like then... uh... come back?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#392

Post by nine_k »

ensignavenger wrote: post #370
noirbot wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

I read through the first part of the ruling to get a better idea of what happened. Apparently, Apple wrote to the Irish tax authorities, and said "this is how we plan to calculate our taxes" and the Irish tax authority said "okay, no problem, that works for us" and the EU commission investigated some years later, and said "wait, was that method of calculating taxes available to all Irish companies? We don't think so,…

> you can't retroactively change rules ... yes we can

Hence, fewer US companies will have significant production in the EU in general, and possibly Ireland in particular. Let's hope it will help native European industries flourish %)

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#393

Post by brunoarueira »

Aerroon wrote: post #193
kasperni wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal healthcare and welfare systems aren’t free.

The welfare systems (in Europe at least) don't work. They work if you're old right now, but once the young people of today become old they won't get anything meaningful out of it. At least that's the impression I have and everyone else my age has. And healthcare is unavailable anyway. Several month long waits to see a specialist.

About public healthcare it's pretty similar on Brazil! Many people can't pay for specialists, exams and etc. So, they have to go early morning (when it's dark yet), wait on long queues and many of them when finally is attended the local doesn't have more vacancies and need to go back another day.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#394

Post by mandibles »

ensignavenger wrote: post #370
noirbot wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

I read through the first part of the ruling to get a better idea of what happened. Apparently, Apple wrote to the Irish tax authorities, and said "this is how we plan to calculate our taxes" and the Irish tax authority said "okay, no problem, that works for us" and the EU commission investigated some years later, and said "wait, was that method of calculating taxes available to all Irish companies? We don't think so,…

Seems like Ireland should have to pay the EU

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#395

Post by hinkley »

The_Colonel wrote: post #388
hinkley wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they should do it like Roth IRAs. You can move the money to a tax haven only after you’ve paid taxes on it. So if you’re building hotels or factories in the haven that’s fine. If you’re hiding money we demand our pound of flesh.

It's more difficult to determine where the value in software is being created. Still, big tech has a lot of R&D offices in Ireland.

That is definitely a difficult paper trail. If you make valves in Ireland they at least have to be shipped. Code just moves on the network. As do commands.

But wouldn’t Ireland see their taxes as “working” if Irish coders are being hired to do the work?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#396

Post by throw310822 »

hirako2000 wrote: post #386
throw310822 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Which if you think about it, is doubly unfair. First Ireland reaped the benefits of keeping Apple in the country; then it gets paid Apple's taxes anyway. Sure, this puts a stop to the practice and makes it much harder to sell such deals in the future, but for the moment Ireland had its apple cake and ate it, too.

It would be unfair if the term was fair to begin with, but it wasn't, according to that court. What would be interesting is to see Apple revealing the cost of its lobbying, to claim a claw back. It won't. It turned out great for Ireland yes, it is odd the court didn't fine that country for offering illegal tax terms.

I think that the court ruled that it was unfair to other countries, not to Ireland. Ireland gained from the deal, didn't lose anything.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#397

Post by tiffanyh »

pyrale wrote: post #371
tiffanyh wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly why I asked. If the government approached Apple, to offer them a special (specific to Apple) tax deal in exchange for X ... why is Apple now being held accountable for Ireland doings.

Because accepting a corruption bargain is as illegal as offering it.

"Corruption" is a strong word here.

Tax Abatements are a long, well understood practice that's been leveraged by city/state/federal governments for decades to incentivize desired outcomes.

Look at Electric Vehicles (EV's)

Both California and Federal government were giving tax incentives for individuals who purchase an EV.

This tax abatement was used to incentivize the adoption of EV's.

Is that "corruption?

Absolutely not.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#398

Post by TillE »

panzagl wrote: post #391
jandrewrogers wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expats aren’t double taxed but you need to file tax returns to offset taxable income that’s already been taxed. This is not correct, it is only practically true in trivial cases. Excess taxation is a very real pain point for Americans living overseas, never mind the other indefensible things the US government does to its expats like FATCA. Many types of income cannot be offset nor or they covered by tax treaties. E…

If you don't like then... uh... come back?

You're free to renounce American citizenship to escape future tax obligations.

Anyway it's not an issue for non-rich expats, you just have to file a tax return which shows you owe $0.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#399

Post by systemtest »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #358
tiffanyh wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s interesting is that it’s common for governments to give tax incentives to companies that will result in driving more economic value for their region. Eg Ireland might give a tax incentive if a large Fortune 500 company hires X people in Ireland. Question: does this ruling prohibit that common practice?

There is a general prohibition on EU member states granting state aid to companies, but there are exceptions to this where the aid is justified in order to promote economically underdeveloped regions. There are a lot of rules and court cases about when state aid will fall on one side or the other of that line. See eg https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/state-aid/legislatio...

The Dutch government is spending billions to keep ASML in The Netherlands. To circumvent these prohibitions, the money doesn't go directly to ASML but is invested in better infrastructure, housing and education in the local area. More trains and busses to bring people to the company, better energy grid to power all the ASML offices, more money towards STEM studies of the local universities so they are creating the new ASML workforce, building extra homes so the company can hire more people.

Plus tax cuts for the employees of ASML, which is fully legal under EU legislation and prohibitions.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#400

Post by Sakos »

tiffanyh wrote: post #397
pyrale wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because accepting a corruption bargain is as illegal as offering it.

"Corruption" is a strong word here. Tax Abatements are a long, well understood practice that's been leveraged by city/state/federal governments for decades to incentivize desired outcomes. Look at Electric Vehicles (EV's) Both California and Federal government were giving tax incentives for individuals who purchase an EV. This tax abatement was used to incentivize the adoption of EV's. Is that "corruption? Absolutely…

... Isn't it?
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