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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#391

Post by Jensson »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #314
Jensson wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> control over which citizens go to university and where they can live I am pretty sure Chinese citizens are allowed to live where they can afford and they are allowed to go to university if they score well enough on the public tests. Just like in Europe. If you are talking about the random arrests that happens in China, that is due to the undemocratic authoritarian regime and corruption, not due to central planning.

> I am pretty sure Chinese citizens are allowed to [...] go to university if they score well enough on the public tests. Just like in Europe. China implements a comprehensive system of geographic affirmative action to prevent universities from being taken over by southerners. A school participating in this system will publish a plan stating how many students it will enroll on a province-by-province basis. (It's also…

You do know that Europe and USA has similar systems, just more spots? Local students are prioritized almost everywhere, in Europe it is by country, in USA it is by state.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#392

Post by tim333 »

bawolff wrote: post #362
tim333 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the old prememant ownership thing has gone out of fashion, maybe we could have something like a 20 year lease where the Brits go in again and bring law and order? This kind of thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Egyptian_Sudan

I feel like the mandate system of the interwar period is kind of what you are thinking of.

Yeah maybe something like that. You'd want some international body to give it legitimacy, maybe have it run by the scandinavians as the British track record and some have mentioned has its blemishes, and you'd need some amount of western military so if local warlords started killing people they could retaliate with himars or fighter jets or some such. And an understanding that they'd support local democracy and be prepared to go home when no longer wanted. Perhaps by referendum - if 50% of the locals wanted the foreigners gone it would be done. Rather than say the Afghan situation where they just disappear at some random point leaving a mess.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#393

Post by _heimdall »

arresin wrote: post #374
_heimdall wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ignores historic examples of societies with multiple cultures, religions, etc living peacefully. It doesn't always end well, but are you proposing the solution is to ensure that societies never try?

> This ignores historic examples of societies with multiple cultures, religions, etc living peacefully. Can you give me some examples? My own knowledge of history goes like this: proximity (between cultures / ethnicities) = war.

Plenty of countries and societies have a mix of different cultures and religions without it triggering a war anything like what Sudan is going through today.

I have lived in the US and the Netherlands. I can say both have a mix of both cultures and religions without widespread famine and bloody civil wars.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#394

Post by VancouverMan »

bawolff wrote: post #340
VancouverMan wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Section 1 and Section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantee that it's useless in practice. This was confirmed by how the Charter did nothing to stop the abuses that Canadians endured from 2020 through 2022.

Which abuses specificly do you think section 33 enabled between 2020 to 2022? Or if its all section 1, do you feel that any country at all has freedom of speech? I can't think of any country that doesn't have something equivalent to section 1, even if only implicitly. Different countries draw the line somewhat differently, but there are none that dont have some sort of similar limited limits to freedom of speech.

For the 2020-2022 situation, I see Section 1 as the problem.

But Quebec, for example, has repeatedly invoked Section 33 over the years, including for legislation limiting expression in non-French languages, among other matters.

Any country that imposes limits on expression simply doesn't have free expression. That would include Canada and the US, and like you say, probably most every other country.

As a Canadian, I can't honestly claim to have constitutionally-protected free expression when I know I could be prosecuted merely for expressing certain ideas.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#395

Post by nradov »

tim333 wrote: post #392
bawolff wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the mandate system of the interwar period is kind of what you are thinking of.

Yeah maybe something like that. You'd want some international body to give it legitimacy, maybe have it run by the scandinavians as the British track record and some have mentioned has its blemishes, and you'd need some amount of western military so if local warlords started killing people they could retaliate with himars or fighter jets or some such. And an understanding that they'd support local democracy and be pr…

Are you sure the Scandinavian countries would volunteer? They have an increasing Russian threat close to home. And none of them have expeditionary militaries. Any deployment to Africa would require extensive assistance from USA/UK/France for logistics, intelligence, communications, and fires. And how would you even conduct a referendum in a conflict zone with no effective civil institutions?

A foreign intervention isn't necessarily a bad idea but doing it effectively would be far more complex than you imagine.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#396

Post by NewJazz »

sofixa wrote: post #385
NewJazz wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither the article author, nor you, have shown that the situation here is caused by a lack of government. In fact the article explicitly states that an important agricultural region is governed by one of the warring factions.

That's because you're misunderstanding what "governed" means here. In the context of the article, it basically means that there are armed men there exercising control over the area, and that's it. There is no actual governance of the land, agricultural exploitation or oversight, basic services, or anything else. Just armed men plundering, which is not any actual government control, hence the anarchy there and all aro…

Bad government is still government.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#397

Post by NewJazz »

sofixa wrote: post #385
NewJazz wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither the article author, nor you, have shown that the situation here is caused by a lack of government. In fact the article explicitly states that an important agricultural region is governed by one of the warring factions.

That's because you're misunderstanding what "governed" means here. In the context of the article, it basically means that there are armed men there exercising control over the area, and that's it. There is no actual governance of the land, agricultural exploitation or oversight, basic services, or anything else. Just armed men plundering, which is not any actual government control, hence the anarchy there and all aro…

Just armed men plundering, which is not any actual government control, hence the anarchy there and all around the country

Also... You may perceive this as anarchy, but many anarchists perceive most governments as exactly that... Just armed men plundering.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#398

Post by thaumasiotes »

Jensson wrote: post #391
thaumasiotes wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am pretty sure Chinese citizens are allowed to [...] go to university if they score well enough on the public tests. Just like in Europe. China implements a comprehensive system of geographic affirmative action to prevent universities from being taken over by southerners. A school participating in this system will publish a plan stating how many students it will enroll on a province-by-province basis. (It's also…

You do know that Europe and USA has similar systems, just more spots? Local students are prioritized almost everywhere, in Europe it is by country, in USA it is by state.

More spots? The threshold for attending college in general tends to be a score at the 40th percentile.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#399

Post by arp242 »

huhrlya wrote: post #379
grecy wrote: post #22

I am very sad to watch this situation. I spent 3 weeks driving my 4x4 through Sudan in early 2019 [1], just a month before they finally got rid of Al-Bashir, and it was incredible. The people of Sudan were some of the kindest and friendliest I have ever encountered on the planet. When I asked for directions to buy bread and it turned out to be complicated, the following morning locals brought a bag of fresh-baked bre…

>The people of Sudan were some of the kindest and friendliest I have ever encountered on the planet. Then why the fuck are they killing each other in a bloody civil war?

Most Sudanese people are not involved in that.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#400

Post by arp242 »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

Other countries such as some middle-eastern states and Russia are already intervening in the conflict, often not entirely with the more purest of intentions, or with the interests of the Sudanese people at heart.

So "let the chaos develop on its own" reasons from a situation that simply does not exist.

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