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Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

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Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#391
post #321

The existence of stuff like this is why I'm always so skeptical of "fix everything" plans such as what Harris apparently recently said about taxing unrealized gains. I heard it secondhand but it appears that whopper of a tax is 'only' for those with income or assets or something over X hundred million dollars. Guess what though? The venn diagram of those folks, and people who can afford attorneys to evade such a tax…

Harris explicitly said only for people worth $100 million. You can have the opinion that politicians will derive from their plan, but it is a big assumption, nothing else.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that minimizing taxes becomes their #1 priority? What actually happens is that they tell the guy handling your finances to save them some money, and that's their problem. And given their fee structure, they'll go as far as they need to, even though the rich person in question doesn't really think about their taxes all that much. This is the real multiplicative effect of being really rich: It's not kn…

Nah I’ve met a fair number of mega-high wealth individuals. They would go so far as to pick a materially worse deal that allowed them to pay no taxes, over a higher payout that required some taxes paid. It is nuts.

Maybe it's like the same irrational aversion that people have to shipping fees. Amazon effect for the rich?

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#393
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They would go so far as to pick a materially worse deal that allowed them to pay no taxes, over a higher payout that required some taxes paid. I find that hard to believe. I highly suspect that the "materially worse" deal you speak of is simply less liquid cash, but more retained wealth.

Given American anti tax sentiment, it isn’t surprising. Plus there is a concerted effort to maintain the narrative that the government should be starved, because the government is the most wasteful body that can be. Being rich isn’t just some sort of statistical metric - it’s also a clear cut option to have your principles and desires accommodated. It’s not hard to believe. To determine whether its 60-40 (tax avoidan…

Being wealthy unlocks the option to not be a rational actor with little or no real world consequences, enabling capricious urges and whim to be a significant factor in the decision making process. See: Elon musk.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#394
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Supporting the war in Ukraine is just another example of “bombing brown people”, yet you appear completely oblivious. How? Russia invades the Ukraine. Ukraine defends itself. Ukraine's allies, incl. the USA, send weapons. None of the allies, incl. the USA, fight in Ukraine or Russia. I'm afraid your independent thinking has formed a prejudiced opinion. George Carlin would not be proud.

Of course this time around we have to do the bombing through some middlemen because the brown people have big guns too, and the people aren’t actually brown this time around. They do speak a weird language though and have different cultural values, so maybe that qualifies.

Ukraine isn’t our ally. That’s a silly sentiment. Ukraine is a developing country wholly comparable to say Zambia or Namibia. Our interests just happen to align this way this time around.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds really, really cool to me. And it's an abuse of language to call it stealing.

It's not, it's literally what it is. Per default, accumulating wealth contains risks for the individual attempting to do so, and increasingly more and more of the wealth is stripped away while reducing none of the risk. Thats absolutely theft.

Theft is illegally taking something. Taxes are part of the legal system. Literally not theft.

Ethically is it right to increase the risk to accumulate wealth? That depends on what you buy with that risk. It’s well-established that people will take risks for fun, and they’ll take significantly more risk when security for themselves and their family is on the line.

Folks with hundreds of millions or billions in assets or millions in income have vastly higher levels of security compared to folks with $100 in the bank and a $15/hr job with no benefits.

So, how much is it ethical to take from the rich to ensure that the poor have decent odds to improve their situation and have a basic level of security? In America, it’s been as much as 60% in income taxes for the highly-paid. A wealth tax of 40% upon death still exists, even if the rich have found a way around that. It sounds like America has already established that 40% taxed to the benefit of all is ethically okay.

So we should probably be killing the buy, borrow, die strategy of tax avoidance, especially on transfer taxes should be collected. But could we take more from the wealthiest and have that be ethically okay?

Let’s say we have someone with $300M in assets and those appreciate 8% annually on average. Those assets will be worth $600M in 10 years. Assuming a spend of $10M per year, they’d still be worth $400M by the end of 10 years. So we’ve had at least $100M generated compared to where we started just for existing and living a lavish life. But we could have taxed that $100M at 40% and put 40M into public services, infrastructure, or entrepreneurial grants to provide tens of thousands of people with more security without materially affecting our asset-owning individual. Even just distributing $40M to supplement incomes for low-security folks would translate to 2500+ people getting a chance to improve their situations.

So, is it ethical to tax the excess asset appreciation that the individual didn’t use for anything? It’s not that it didn’t grow, it’s that it grew a little less fast. And we were able to impact thousands based on that. I’d argue yes, and I struggle to understand how “make life no different for the individual vs make life better for thousands of people” comes down on the side of the individual. It’s not until taxes grow higher than appreciation that I start to think it might be unethical.

But as you approach taxes equaling appreciation, I can see how it could be counterproductive. I think that’s not the argument though. It wouldn’t be terribly difficult to tax assets based on appreciation above their highest appraisal, with appraisal triggering taxes being owed. Certainly no more complicated than our current taxes assets and the loopholes that lead to buy, borrow, die.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#396
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, it's literally what it is. Per default, accumulating wealth contains risks for the individual attempting to do so, and increasingly more and more of the wealth is stripped away while reducing none of the risk. Thats absolutely theft.

Fulfilling your obligation to a society that brought you riches, however much risk you took and however much hard work vs luck that was, is not theft. Fueling that society, so that it can persist for your well-being is your obligation as a citizen. If you fully play out your argument, the least wealthy and least successful deserve it the most to have their remaining wealth taken because they are not assuming any risk…

The line of thinking we’re trying to get across to you here is best put like this I find; even if 99% of the village thinks it’s a good idea to march into the most productive individual’s house and rob it clean, it doesn’t become morally right to do so.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're literally plotting policies of "wealth redistribution" in the EU at least. The idiot bureaucrats can call it what they want, but forcibly redistributing your assets more and more to other people makes it thievery.

The longer people will call it communist plot and insist on not paying taxes, the higher is the probability of having the actual communist plot and being exiled to the Moon by a popular vote.

It’s a shame it seems to come to that about once every hundred years. We’ve won the war against the communists before though, and we’ll do it again.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#398
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, typically poor people’s contribution to the economy isn’t as great individually. Groundbreaking stuff.

The cute thing there being they outnumber the big fish by something like 400,000 to 1 in the US and without them there is literally no economy and no billionaire class.

Your take is as profound as claiming there’s no life without oxygen, but it serves very little actual utility in observing the world.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering how governments spend the money nowadays, especially the US and a few others on military stuff and promoting death, I think avoiding tax is a favor to society.

Only if you use the savings to change the government to be more humane.

I'm not in favor of telling people what to do, in general. As long as what they're doing doesn't cause undue harm to others, it's better than what most governments do nowadays.

Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Supporting the war in Ukraine is just another example of “bombing brown people”, yet you appear completely oblivious. How? Russia invades the Ukraine. Ukraine defends itself. Ukraine's allies, incl. the USA, send weapons. None of the allies, incl. the USA, fight in Ukraine or Russia. I'm afraid your independent thinking has formed a prejudiced opinion. George Carlin would not be proud.

The US has no allies, only interests. It interests us to be adversarial to Russia. It interests us to "bomb brown people". None of which is done out of some moral duty.

Is this supposed to be some insight? The very definition of "alliance" says: groups or people who work together because of shared interests. You ally because you share interests, e.g. a specific goal.
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