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Toasts are bad UX

maxschmitt.me

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Re: Toasts are bad UX

#391

Post by sebstefan »

autoexec wrote: post #382
sebstefan wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP completely missed the point of toasts. Some user actions can be 1) done accidentally 2) don't lend themselves to confirmation boxes because they are often also done repeatedly So if you accidentally press something and suddenly the email is gone from your inbox, you want a toast with an undo button. Or if you're just idling and you suddenly see a toast because you were leaning on a button, you'll be glad it's ther…

> So if you accidentally press something and suddenly the email is gone from your inbox, you want a toast with an undo button. Why? If an email suddenly vanishes and you don't want that you don't need a popup to tell you what happened, you can just Ctrl-Z and the email comes back

No, not for email. Tech illiterate people use email. They're not going to have the reflex to Ctrl+Z, but a toast with "undo" at least gives them the information that undoing is possible, even if they're not quick enough to click on it

Re: Toasts are bad UX

#392

Post by roninorder »

catapart wrote: post #390
roninorder wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... still an opinion? You forgot to include the results of your extensive A/B testing and links to research on the subject.

Yes, a well tested and well researched opinion. Just like I'm sure your opinion was. The difference is, I didn't say "Here's a better UX". I said "This is an appropriate use for the UX". I didn't back it up with testing because I wasn't saying anything that needed backing up. I wasn't making a value statement, or insisting on a quality of the UX; I just said that toasts were appropriate for certain functions - not th…

This is not a formal argument, it's a thread on a discussion forum.

If value judgments trigger you so severely, it could be healthier to log off and read a book instead.

In an informal conversation, it's common to voice an opinion and present an argument. It's also common for other participants to disagree and voice a different opinion.

Informal conversations can actually be wonderul, you should try!

Re: Toasts are bad UX

#393

Post by consteval »

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #34
iambateman wrote: post #6

Toasts are bad UX for an app which is used in a casual context, yes. The odds that an untrained user missed them and becomes confused are quite high. But there is nothing wrong with a toast in a pro app. The pro user will get used to where feedback comes from on the screen and find it is second nature to notice the toast. In practice, there are very few UX principles that generalize across every interface.

Classic. People that are bad at UX design using the “pro app” catch-all to justify all sorts of bad decisions. I spend all day in “pro apps”. I am also visually impaired. The inappropriateness of toasts has nothing to do with my familiarity with the app. I may, eventually, learn that a particular UI is using toasts to indicate something. That doesn’t suddenly make it okay. They’re still a massive pain in the ass for…

> bad at UX design using the “pro app” catch-all to justify all sorts of bad decisions

No, pro apps actually have completely different UX requirements.

In a pro app, the UX requirement is to be able to perform actions QUICKLY and RELIABLY, meaning it works the same way every time with a minimal number of steps.

This leads to "cluttered" interfaces with lots of information, because this way actions can be performed quickly AND results/data are always in the same place so it's reliable. Take an IDE with multiple panels with output going in/out. Quick to see what you need to, everything is sectioned off so you know right where to look, and everything is one or two clicks away.

However, casual apps have almost opposite requirements! They need to be non-intimating and simple. Simple is at odds with quick to use IF the use case is complex. Simple and quick to use can ONLY coexist in a scenario that is simple in it of itself, i.e. not a pro app but a simple app.

Re: Toasts are bad UX

#397

Post by catapart »

roninorder wrote: post #392
catapart wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a well tested and well researched opinion. Just like I'm sure your opinion was. The difference is, I didn't say "Here's a better UX". I said "This is an appropriate use for the UX". I didn't back it up with testing because I wasn't saying anything that needed backing up. I wasn't making a value statement, or insisting on a quality of the UX; I just said that toasts were appropriate for certain functions - not th…

This is not a formal argument, it's a thread on a discussion forum. If value judgments trigger you so severely, it could be healthier to log off and read a book instead. In an informal conversation, it's common to voice an opinion and present an argument. It's also common for other participants to disagree and voice a different opinion. Informal conversations can actually be wonderul, you should try!

lol I can't tell if you actually believe that I'm somehow hyper-focused on this because I was able to scrawl out two paragraphs, or if you're just deflecting, but either way it's pretty funny!

I said a thing. You said a thing. I gave you honest and apathetic feedback. You're the one that got defensive about that. You could have left it there; you could have said "oh, I've got nothing formal, I'm just talking about case X, Y, and Z, as brought up in article W."; you could have done anything other than take it hard. Instead you got pissy about me not caring about your unsupported opinion (I make no value judgement on whether it's actually good or bad; just that it's unsupported).

I'm sorry that my immediate response, in informal conversation, is less charitable than you prefer. I don't have any interest in arguing about stuff that has accessible points of well-supported data. I prefer to argue about stuff like art and flavor and preference and anything that doesn't have some reference-able data to make one side or the other impractical to support. If you want to talk movies, or games, or food, I'm happy to volley back and forth about the "better" and "worse" things. But if you want to "argue" that you know of a way for me to do my job "better", I cannot stress this enough: I would LOVE to see your data. Because it will help me do my job better. It's not facetious; it's not smug; it's not a spit in your face. It's an honest offer for you to either provide something that does what you say (at least in your opinion!), or to leave this topic with me. There's nothing tempermental or nuerotically formalized about politely offering a path for the conversation, should it continue. You should try just ignoring the path if you don't want to walk down it.

Re: Toasts are bad UX

#398

Post by roninorder »

catapart wrote: post #397
roninorder wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a formal argument, it's a thread on a discussion forum. If value judgments trigger you so severely, it could be healthier to log off and read a book instead. In an informal conversation, it's common to voice an opinion and present an argument. It's also common for other participants to disagree and voice a different opinion. Informal conversations can actually be wonderul, you should try!

lol I can't tell if you actually believe that I'm somehow hyper-focused on this because I was able to scrawl out two paragraphs, or if you're just deflecting, but either way it's pretty funny! I said a thing. You said a thing. I gave you honest and apathetic feedback. You're the one that got defensive about that. You could have left it there; you could have said "oh, I've got nothing formal, I'm just talking about ca…

You got it backwards. There is no way to argue about what music is "better". Or at least no productive way to do that.

When talking about UX, I am expressing an opinion based both on my experience as an engineer and as a user. In this case, I can state that something is better, at least in the sense that it's a more intuitive and an effective pattern.

If judgments like that trigger you - that's ok, I don't have to meet some unexpressed level of data-supported evidence.

> There's nothing tempermental or nuerotically formalized about politely offering a path for the conversation

Re-read your responses and imagine talking to someone in person with this level of nit-picking and animosity.

“You’re not wrong, Walter..." and so on.

Re: Toasts are bad UX

#399

Post by catapart »

roninorder wrote: post #398
catapart wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol I can't tell if you actually believe that I'm somehow hyper-focused on this because I was able to scrawl out two paragraphs, or if you're just deflecting, but either way it's pretty funny! I said a thing. You said a thing. I gave you honest and apathetic feedback. You're the one that got defensive about that. You could have left it there; you could have said "oh, I've got nothing formal, I'm just talking about ca…

You got it backwards. There is no way to argue about what music is "better". Or at least no productive way to do that. When talking about UX, I am expressing an opinion based both on my experience as an engineer and as a user. In this case, I can state that something is better, at least in the sense that it's a more intuitive and an effective pattern. If judgments like that trigger you - that's ok, I don't have to me…

lol

Re: Toasts are bad UX

#400

Post by xp84 »

TRiG_Ireland wrote: post #375
Maxion wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, if this feature was limited to the window in focus, then the API could make sense. The way it is now, I know all savvy users will just block it, and many of the non savvy ones will too... Complete waste of time to dedicate developer resources too over e.g. in-line toasts.

Sometimes (as in a chat app) I want the window to notify me when anything changes, so I don't have to sit and look at it.

Sure! Unfortunately I am not sure I’ve ever seen the api used for anything other than what I’d call spam. To the point where as soon as I’m prompted I’m finding that “block” button before even speculating what it’s supposedly for.
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