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Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

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Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#391

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

ilaksh wrote: post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

$1000 can be a difference between living in a shitty apartment 2 hours drive to work and a nice apartment 10 min walk to work.

I was working as a home assistant and learning C++, took me a year before getting a programming job this way. Could have been much shorter if I had $1000.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#392

Post by wkrsz »

melagonster wrote: post #390
ilaksh wrote: post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

Yes, maybe offering free education to everyone is easier than real UBI...

One challenge is that people who must work full-time (or more) can't participate and benefit from free education. At the same time they are forced to fund this free education through taxes.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#393

Post by sanp »

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #391
ilaksh wrote: post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

$1000 can be a difference between living in a shitty apartment 2 hours drive to work and a nice apartment 10 min walk to work. I was working as a home assistant and learning C++, took me a year before getting a programming job this way. Could have been much shorter if I had $1000.

The problem is rent will go up when everyone can afford that extra 1000. Unless you build more housing UBI will just inflate housing costs

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#394

Post by CTDOCodebases »

qqqwerty wrote: post #369
CTDOCodebases wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the studies on UBI are flawed. The whole point of UBI is that everyone gets the money. When you give a select few extra money they can do things that they otherwise wouldn't. When you give everyone money the value of the money just decreases.

Negative income tax (NIT) solves this. At this point, when anyone says UBI, I just substitute NIT in my head. It is really the only practical implementation of a UBI scheme. Further, if a UBI-like program is funded with new taxes (or cuts to existing programs), it should have a negligible impact on inflation. It is only when you do deficit spending that you risk inflation.

Good points. I think NIT would cause some inflation though as the cost for some things is related to the geography so kind of like what we saw with the pandemic some people would change location so they could afford a better lifestyle and end up driving up the prices of things in other locations. But maybe then they could base the amount on wherever someone is a resident however I’m sure this would be gamed. Maybe a state issued debit card for NIT could solve this though or banks could be required to pass transaction details to government. This could possibly assist government in information gathering for tax compliance.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#395

Post by Anotheroneagain »

UBI wouldn't be needed if we got rid of loans. Loans block the increase in prosperity, as they become hard to pay if the economy improves, and misallocate resources on the bank's whim. The great depression likely wouldn't happen at all (or to a much limited extent, as some people would have to find new jobs) and instead the prices would drop until most people could live off their savings.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#396

Post by sanp »

I think UBI without regulations on pricing will result in inflation that will negate the benefits of UBI.

Regulating prices will have unintended consequences (outside of a specific set of goods).

Perhaps the Govt needs to take over the provisioning of these basics (production and distribution) and anything outside the basics will be market driven.

I know this has been tried in the past and has failed miserably. But, we now have better ways to track these things. So, maybe time to give it another try?

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#397

Post by HPsquared »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #314
namibj wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under that concept, well, if actually taking the social security (Grundsicherung) in Germany as a given, even assuming low CoL situations (it's worse in higher-CoL situations), the effective average tax rate past like about 160 EUR/month of income will rise to a peak at around 1500 EUR/month income and then continuously decrease to the super wealthy limit tax just under 50%. At least you technically never have less m…

> At least you technically never have less money from more work (but only if you consider bureaucracy free; there is severe bureaucracy especially for those that fluctuate in and out of coverage). When the effective marginal tax rate is high, this is often as close as makes no difference, because you not only have the cost of bureaucracy but also the cost of working . You're paying an effective marginal tax rate of 8…

Maybe it could be reframed as "incremental hourly income". Partial derivative of disposable income w.r.t hours worked (including time overheads)

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#398

Post by HPsquared »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #266
ilaksh wrote: post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

We have plenty of ubi tests taking place as we speak in the form of people with their own trust funds.

Not universal, in that case.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#399

Post by HPsquared »

m3kw9 wrote: post #255
ilaksh wrote: post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

Nice is always relative to what most has, if you compare to 1700s any apartments would have been called nice, this is why UBI may not work as well as people think. When everyone has the same quality of life they take it for granted

Basically the city has some nice apartments and some not-so-nice. Paying everyone an equal additional amount of paper money won't give everyone the nice apartment, there are still only a few of those available.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#400

Post by perlgeek »

sanp wrote: post #396

I think UBI without regulations on pricing will result in inflation that will negate the benefits of UBI. Regulating prices will have unintended consequences (outside of a specific set of goods). Perhaps the Govt needs to take over the provisioning of these basics (production and distribution) and anything outside the basics will be market driven. I know this has been tried in the past and has failed miserably. But,…

> I think UBI without regulations on pricing will result in inflation that will negate the benefits of UBI.

I believe that too, and that sounds like a market failure to me.

Shouldn't competition keep prices down?

I believe we need to investigate why that mechanism doesn't seem to work, and fix it; regulating prices can only be a very narrow and interim solution.

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