Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind • Hacker News Board

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#391

Post by smokel » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

adastra22 wrote: post #386

smokel wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most certainly. In the first case one can actually use data to base decisions on. In the latter, one is merely hallucinating something which has less information value.

In both cases you're "merely" experiencing the feeling of seeing those details. That's what it means to remember something with a brain.

Allow me to try again: in the first case you actually see the details in your mind, and you can reason with them, by separating out single details, focus on them, and reproduce them in a meaningful way. This would allow an artist to form a highly detailed image in their head, and then reproduce it on paper. I think this is very rare, if possible at all. (Of course this is possible with simple imagery, but we are discussing photorealistic copies of the Mona Lisa here.)

In the latter case, one assumes to see details, but in fact one does not, and one cannot focus on details, nor reason with them.

I'm painting a black-and-white distinction here, but I suppose that in reality it is even more complex.

Does this make sense, or do you still insist that there is no meaningful difference between these two interpretations? In that case, could you point out where you think my reasoning goes wrong?

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#392

Post by dekhn » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 6:37 PM UTC

smokel wrote: post #320

dekhn wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's basically what I experience. When I learned that many artists picture their entire drawing in detail, and then put it down on page roughly as they imagine it, I couldn't even imagine that.

I wonder where you learned that. To my knowledge, there are only very few artists who work that way. Source: can draw pretty well myself, do not use this method.

i heard this from my art class teachers when I was growing up, and from a few friends who went on to be comic strip artists. However, going back and reading a few interviews of my friend, it seems like he actually imagines fairly simplified storyboards before drawing them, not a wholly formed final image.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#393

Post by adastra22 » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 7:02 PM UTC

smokel wrote: post #391

adastra22 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both cases you're "merely" experiencing the feeling of seeing those details. That's what it means to remember something with a brain.

Allow me to try again: in the first case you actually see the details in your mind, and you can reason with them, by separating out single details, focus on them, and reproduce them in a meaningful way. This would allow an artist to form a highly detailed image in their head, and then reproduce it on paper. I think this is very rare, if possible at all. (Of course this is possible with simple imagery, but we are disc…

All real people (not machines with lossless recall) are actually the second case, even if they think otherwise. The brain is never a lossless memory replay device, even if it feels like it to some people.

But my original point was more that the feeling of seeing something is all there is, whether you interpret those feelings as visual or otherwise. There isn’t a homunculus in your head with a little film projector.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#394

Post by satvikpendem » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 7:55 PM UTC

smokel wrote: post #360

satvikpendem wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you be sure that you actually see the details, and that you are not merely experiencing the feeling of seeing those details? Can you describe the difference to me based on your experience? I don't quite understand what it would be, because in my mind's eye, I can literally see the entirety of the Mona Lisa. It does not feel like a "feeling," like happiness or angriness, those are what I'd classify as feelin…

It's probably impossible to tell the difference (which would explain the lack of understanding of opposing groups in this thread), unless one tests their ability to actually see the details instead of merely believing that one sees the details. If drawing is not your thing, consider whether you can count the number of creases in her sleeves, or what length the shadow under her nose is, and where the light source is c…

> If drawing is not your thing, consider whether you can count the number of creases in her sleeves, or what length the shadow under her nose is, and where the light source is coming from.

I see what you mean, yes, it's not eidetic or photographic memory when I see it in my mind, I can't see all the small details like that, but I can see it as if I took a picture, not an extremely high resolution one that shows every brush stroke, but more akin to something like this photo's level of detail (I can visualize the people in the crowd as well) [0]. I might even say that I cannot see the details because I actually have no knowledge of them (exactly how many folds or creases there are), than being unable to visualize them entirely. For example, I can see the Mona Lisa with 4, 5, 6, folds in her sleeves, all different images in my mind. Some people however can see every crease exactly as it is but that's much rarer, it's photographic memory, and it's not really what I'd call a normal person's (without aphantasia) experience. It is likely even trainable with more exposure to the actual underlying artifact such as observing the painting in-depth and remembering via visual snapshots what it looks like.

There are others with aphantasia, perhaps milder forms of it, who cannot "see" the Mona Lisa as a photograph, they just see a blur or something more akin to curves and lines that they must focus on, sometimes without color. These people would have less stable images in my mind, but generally my images are pretty stable. I'm curious to hear about what you can see in your mind's eye. Based on what you were saying, it seems to me like you're more on the belief or feeling side, or is it that you can completely see an image in your mind that's stable?

[0] https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/05/02/arts/02reyburn3/m...

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#395

Post by smokel » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 8:15 PM UTC

adastra22 wrote: post #393

smokel wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allow me to try again: in the first case you actually see the details in your mind, and you can reason with them, by separating out single details, focus on them, and reproduce them in a meaningful way. This would allow an artist to form a highly detailed image in their head, and then reproduce it on paper. I think this is very rare, if possible at all. (Of course this is possible with simple imagery, but we are disc…

All real people (not machines with lossless recall) are actually the second case, even if they think otherwise. The brain is never a lossless memory replay device, even if it feels like it to some people. But my original point was more that the feeling of seeing something is all there is, whether you interpret those feelings as visual or otherwise. There isn’t a homunculus in your head with a little film projector.

> All real people (not machines with lossless recall) are actually the second case, even if they think otherwise.

I tend to agree, but I suppose that the level of lossiness varies from person to person, and depends on training and concentration.

> the feeling of seeing something is all there is, whether you interpret those feelings as visual or otherwise

Interesting! Would you say that the same mechanism applies to the feeling of hearing or tasting things? Or are those fundamentally different from visual experiences?

And what about observing the real world, is that the same experience as replaying something in one's head, but using a different input source?

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#396

Post by anthonypasq » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 8:40 PM UTC

basscomm wrote: post #315

solumunus wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you navigate via memory without some degree of mental visualisation? I’m convinced many aphantasia folk are just heavily overrating what other people are describing as visualisation, as if it’s some kind of minority report style interface that appears before you and is perceived by the eye. It’s simply being able to reconstruct physical entities as mental models. Again, without being able to do that it just se…

> How do you navigate via memory without some degree of mental visualisation? How do people who are physically blind from birth navigate without mental visualization? > I’m convinced many aphantasia folk are just heavily overrating what other people are describing as visualisation I find the utter disbelief expressed by people who don't have aphantasia exhausting. It would be similar to encountering someone who has b…

because the average person relies so heavily on visualization in their day to day life, people that claim they dont have this ability but also seem to have no discernable difference in the way they interact with the world is what is confusing. everyone understands that deaf people exist because its really fucking obvious when someone is deaf. they interact with the world differently.

its really weird to me, and most everyone that you could be looking at a cup and trying to commit its visual properties to memory, and then close your eyes and be complete incapable of re-constructing even a vague visual representation of it.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#397

Post by anthonypasq » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 8:42 PM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #357

solumunus wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you navigate via memory without some degree of mental visualisation? I’m convinced many aphantasia folk are just heavily overrating what other people are describing as visualisation, as if it’s some kind of minority report style interface that appears before you and is perceived by the eye. It’s simply being able to reconstruct physical entities as mental models. Again, without being able to do that it just se…

I can visualize nothing, but have excellent navigation skills. I can accurately remember the geospatial arrangement of cities and locations and routes I visited only once decades ago. That part of my brain has nothing to do with “seeing things”

do you have any experience of feeling like youve been at a particular place before. if you dont remember seeing it, do you just remember the arangement of landmarks like dots on a grid?

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#398

Post by anthonypasq » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 8:48 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #306

costco wrote: post #304

I don't see anything. I feel like we're talking past each other. I am skeptical that "visualize an apple" to some people gets them the mental equivalent of a Blender model where they get a 360 degree view of the image and from there they are able to apply arbitrary transformations. I can "replay" songs in my head with pretty good fidelity to the original if I remember enough of it, but I think that's fairly common.

I have come to believe there are different type of intelligences, we all have a few, just different. I do believe a subset of humans can rotate a mental image in their head. I know an accomplished UI / UX artist who would do just this. He'd create an image in his head, observe and critique it from angles and then create in "reality" I can listen to a song 100 times, and not tell you more than 5 words in a song, nor t…

i think calling those things different types of intelligence is dumb. those are just skills.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#399

Post by satvikpendem » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 9:17 PM UTC

Throw_Away_1049 wrote: post #253

iand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's real and I have it. I was astonished when I discovered other people see pictures in their head. It doesn't restrict my creative thinking but I am a spatial thinker. When I solve an imaginary logic problem such as advancing the hands on a clock I can't see the before and after states but I can infer their positions by the directions they must point and then read the new time from that.

Wait, do people see images of a clock in their mind? Like you, I know spatially where the hands should point so I assume this is what “seeing” is. Do people see a clock… like a legit visual when they close their eyes?

Yep, and I can even make the clock tick

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#400

Post by smeej » Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 10:49 PM UTC

satvikpendem wrote: post #353

smeej wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "screen" isn't anywhere in space. It's in my internal world. If I want to see only it, I take a step out of reality, into my head, and there it is. Doesn't matter whether my eyes are open or closed, there's just another reality I can enter. I can superimpose things from it on normal reality too though, wherever I want them. They're in all three dimensions, like I can walk around them, or just copy the entire scene…

Sounds like you actually have the opposite, hyperphantasia, perhaps even of an extreme kind. I also lucid dream, very vividly, but I cannot superimpose things from my mind onto my visual plane, it is more like the above parent for me, it's in a separate area from the visual plane altogether, and I suspect that's most people except for those with hyperphantasia.

Yes, from what I've heard from other people, I have pretty extreme hyperphantasia.

The only other people I've talked to/heard of who experience something similar also have one or more kinds of synesthesia, which I don't have. I can pull anything from my inner world into the outer one and vice versa, but the things are only themselves. Numbers and letters don't have colors, smells, or personalities. Music notes aren't tactile. Nothing like that.