Are animals conscious? New research • Hacker News Board

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#391

Post by FrustratedMonky » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 2:45 PM UTC

jprete wrote: post #366

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

Now that you mention it, I don't remember any Biblical support for animals not being conscious. Humans being special, yes - animals being unconscious automata, no. A quick Google search suggests the opposite conclusion can very easily be drawn, although I see no reason to elaborate on those arguments here.

Maybe "Biblical Support" as in a strict reading of the bible .

But definitely Christians have 'interpreted' the Bible in ways to minimize animals as sub-human, without souls, no spirit, etc...

These discussions are ancient times stand-ins for what today we might label 'consciousness'.

To say the bible didn't strictly discuss 'consciousness' or 'automata' is ignoring that Christians think 'self' resides in the 'soul' so if animals don't' have them, then what are they? automata seems logical, but they didn't have the word for it. What is something that moves around but doesn't have a soul to move it?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#392

Post by lordnacho » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 2:46 PM UTC

paol wrote: post #375

brotchie wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness and intelligence are orthogonal concepts. It's not the case that the more "intelligent" human is, the more "conscious" they are. Intelligence is the ability to abstractly reason and adapt to novel stimulus. Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain. Given we're all in the same evolutionary line, there nothing to make me believe that a Dog d…

If you enjoy fiction I urge you to read Blindsight by Peter Watts. One of the central concepts in the plot is "what if consciousness were unnecessary for intelligence"? Along the way it explores all sorts of angles on consciousness and cognition. Still ranks as one of the best SF works I've read this century.

> what if consciousness were unnecessary for intelligence

Kind of interesting given we are currently in the midst of a revolution in artificial intelligence. From my playing with it, it seems something like ChatGPT is intelligent in the GP sense of "can abstract stuff and respond to new stimulus" but isn't conscious in the sense of having an interior.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#393

Post by bane » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 2:51 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

There seems to be more dimensions to it though. Trivially, a dog and a human might be on one axis, but you can't rank differently intelligent humans along that same axis. The average dog, while strictly and obviously not as intelligent as a human is not impaired, they function at their fullest. While as humans go further down and away from mainline human intelligence become obviously impaired.

We seem to have a notion that intelligence has multiple dimensions to it, so it's more likely that human intelligence exists as some kind of probabilistic gradient on a hyperplane in a high-dimensional space, and sampling from that plane yields any possible human intelligence profile, while sampling away from that space yields something decidedly not human. Other animals thus must be similar hyperplanes, perhaps in their own space, and likely not intersecting with humans at all.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#394

Post by jsz0 » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 2:53 PM UTC

Here's one of the most simple practical examples that proves to me cats are conscious. When my cat sleeps in my bed occasionally I accidetanlly kick or bump into her in the dark. Instead of fleeing, hissing or attacking me she lets out a very unique earnest meow that clearly means 'hey I'm here' and she goes back to sleep like nothing happened. She clearly understands my motivation wasn't to harm her. She clearly understands we share a common motivation of sleeping in the comfy bed. She clearly understands a concept of the future where she lets me know her position and expects me not to accidentally bother her again. If I continue to bother he she will simply get up and move just far enough away to avoid further trouble.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#395

Post by bangaroo » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 2:56 PM UTC

ojosilva wrote: post #388

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

> humans exist along a spectrum and there isn't a sharp cliff where humans are 100% conscious and empathetic but dogs are 0% I disagree, to a certain extent. In my layman terms, I believe "consciousness" is how humans define and differentiate the human mind, so it's exclusive to humans. Other living beings (or even AI) display human-like traits but they should not be defined as "conscious" because that's our own defi…

how did you arrive at that conclusion? i feel like there's still just an element of "it's this way because it is this way" to this argument. the entire point of the article and the discussion is the fact that we perhaps assume our experience to be unique when it's not.

it could be just as possible that animals experience consciousness in the exact way we do but simply have different innate motivations and interests that lead us to believe they're making decisions with less awareness than we do. it's making the assumption that the human approach to living and existing is the correct approach and then everything around us is "below it."

reading the article you see that there isn't even a clear understanding of what denotes consciousness, so it seems weird to just say "well whatever it is, it isn't that" based on the arbitrary desire to set our species apart from others.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#396

Post by mikestew » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 3:02 PM UTC

stoperaticless wrote: post #247

slowmovintarget wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

But sadly they dont have theory of rope.

Oddly, I’ve found that pit bulls won’t wrap themselves around a tree. We’ve had several in our house that are/were walked daily, and we volunteer at a dog shelter where my wife and I walk other pit bulls on a regular basis. There are exceptions, but my experience is that the vast majority will not let anything (like a tree) between themselves and their handler if on leash. Just when I think “ah, ha! You’re going to do it…”, they will course correct and go around to avoid trouble. It’s the oddest thing. I have never come up with a plausible theory, but it sure is nice.

(And it is not our dog handling, as our control groups are happy to wrap circles around a tree.)

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#397

Post by jprete » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 3:03 PM UTC

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #391

jprete wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that you mention it, I don't remember any Biblical support for animals not being conscious. Humans being special, yes - animals being unconscious automata, no. A quick Google search suggests the opposite conclusion can very easily be drawn, although I see no reason to elaborate on those arguments here.

Maybe "Biblical Support" as in a strict reading of the bible . But definitely Christians have 'interpreted' the Bible in ways to minimize animals as sub-human, without souls, no spirit, etc... These discussions are ancient times stand-ins for what today we might label 'consciousness'. To say the bible didn't strictly discuss 'consciousness' or 'automata' is ignoring that Christians think 'self' resides in the 'soul'…

I expect that most ancient people believed that animals were conscious. It's impossible to spend a lot of time with any mammal and think of it as not being aware of anything.

For what it's worth, my Googling suggested that the Bible leans in the direction of animals having souls and going to the afterlife, as well.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#398

Post by moi2388 » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 3:05 PM UTC

nikkwong wrote: post #258

moi2388 wrote: post #250

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

I think you're over complicating it. When people generally talk about consciousness, they're talking about the phenomenology of awareness in the present moment. It's not really hard to define. It's difficult to establish whether or not an animal is conscious in the way that it's difficult to establish whether another person is conscious. The only evidence we have for consciousness is the fact that we personally exper…

Now you’ve just replaced “consciousness” with “awareness”. Self-awareness? Awareness of stimuli? Awareness of demarcation of animate and inanimate objects?

I understand it sounds simple, but there are so many different systems interplaying to give rise to whatever definition of consciousness you give, it’s really hard to give exact definitions.

Also, you still talk as if this “awareness in the moment” might be a simple dichotomy. I seriously highly doubt this is the case, especially when it comes to stuff like reflexes and instincts.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#399

Post by tdb7893 » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 3:07 PM UTC

lukan wrote: post #354

sim7c00 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling onto it religiously :D. There's even animals with more developed / complex brains as us, but surely, they can't be conscious! My dog isn't dreaming about anything, he's just flapping his feet and snorting and making cute sounds in his sleep at random, likely…

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

There are a lot of things that I was taught growing up that I used to sort of just accept but from the outside don't really make any sense (as an example: where I grew up was pretty homophobic but once I was old enough I realized that the homophobia just literally made no sense and it was stupid to care what other people did). The current state of animal agriculture is one of those thing, growing up I ate meat and I had all these justifications but once I stopped I realized it was all bullshit and the treatment of animals just wasn't okay. It's pretty crazy the way we'll just accept things that are "normal" even if they are absolutely horrifying.

The saddest thing to me is the people that say they "love animals" but eat them pretty uncritically (though obviously I used to be one of these people).

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#400

Post by LocalH » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 3:08 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #210

ivan_gammel wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animal language is obviously on the same level as human laughter and cries and whimpers. Animals don't teach language to each other like humans do. Obviously? There’s no reason to assume that. It is known that cetaceans acquire their language and dialects through social learning. It was very recently discovered that some whales even have names for each other. Their language may be different from ours, but it is not…

That is one example, I am talking about the animals humans think about when they think animal language: dogs, horses, cats etc. Maybe some animals have language closer to humans, but it is far from the common definition for "animal language".

Quite the human-centric view of the animal world you have there