Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software • Hacker News Board

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#391

Post by hinkley » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:19 PM UTC

I was at my second job as a lead dev. I'd been consolidated into another team to improve our burn rate, and because my product was being asked to squeeze blood from stone and we were starting to arrive at the end of the quantity of blood I was likely to be able to extract. It is still some of my cleverest work.

I'd been on the new project long enough to fix a couple major logistic issues with code-build-test cycles, and to get a page that took 30 seconds to load down to 3 seconds with five lines of code, and they were starting to trust me.

One day I'm in a conversation with the architect where we are about to spiral airing the things that suck and he starts talking about how some of these seem to be intrinsic. He ends a sentence with "and the only way to solve these problems is to open a flower shop. If you sell someone flowers they don't come back in five days telling you they were the wrong flowers."

From then on, every time the outlook got dark or just spicy, we would joke about opening a flower shop together. What's the best month to open a flower shop? Most of the sales are for Valentine's Day, but how long do you need to be open for brand recognition ahead of VD?

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#392

Post by jq-r » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:20 PM UTC

hn_version_0023 wrote: post #325

whb101 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment hits the crux of what OP was really getting at. It's not that software itself is an inherently bad trade; it's what's been happening to it and why. > very happy at a fast-growing small tech company where one can have honest conversations about the customer and the product Right. Why is this getting harder to find? Engineers are feeling like their labor is increasingly becoming unimpactful vaporware; thei…

I’m going to seize on one phrase: people, including many software engineers themselves, view software engineers as natural resources I’ve said this a million times on this forum.. the little trick whereby people who were once employees became merely _human resources_ has done more to damage work-life in this world than anything else I can think of. Its natural to exploit resources to their fullest. Labeling humans as…

I've lost my cool one time when a very young "manager" asked: "Do we have a backend resource on this call?"

It really got my blood boiling and I've said something very similar to: "No we don't have a resource on the call, we have engineers, colleagues, employees, humans and friends on this call. Resources are air, water, memory, cpu and time, please don't call people like that". This followed by silence, and a lot of red faces.

Couple of weeks later, had a talk with my manager who is a true and true programmer I really respect. And then he says something with that "resource" referring to our team members...

I have experience across various industries, and many professions think very highly of themselves. But over here I have seen the working population be so easily manipulated, self-effacing, and self-abnegating. Most of the time bad managers just say "jump!" and engineers just ask "how high?".

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#393

Post by tmarsden » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:20 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #388

tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…

Completely agree, his ideas could stand on their own there was no need to push them with violence.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#394

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

tmarsden wrote: post #393

freedomben wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…

Completely agree, his ideas could stand on their own there was no need to push them with violence.

[deleted]

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#395

Post by freedomben » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:22 PM UTC

sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

Same. The enterprise can be enjoyable from some aspects, but in the end the soul-suck isn't worth it to me. I think a great skunk works team with a big budget is probably the dream, but short of those rare and difficult-to-get opportunities, the startup/small-tech co is the place to go for people like us. Some are better than others at faciliting honesty, but it's far more common IME than big corp.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#396

Post by chubot » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:31 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #388

tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…

Did the Unabomer have any ideas you couldn't read elsewhere?

I imagine there are tons of philosophers who have said similar things.

Here's a comment recommending Jacque Ellul and Lewis Mumford - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4015488

Another one - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24658601

(I haven't read them)

But we probably don't remember or cite them because their manifestos weren't published on the front page of newspapers.

That was due to the serial violence of the author, and it was subsequently talked about for decades.

That is, the notoriety of his crimes could be the reason that you read and recommend his work, rather than somebody else's work -- as opposed to it being a coincidence

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#397

Post by svilen_dobrev » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:33 PM UTC

skeeter2020 wrote: post #290

Nothing destroys your love of a hobby, even one that you are passionately (or even obsessively) dedicated to, like making it your job. I LOVE riding bikes but all the BS of working in software is preferable to trying to support my love of bikes within the broader industry of bikes. The word "amateur" has negative connotations, but should really be interpreted as "not your primary pay cheque", not that you suck.

"connoiseur" :)

sometimes much-much more involved - paycheck-less - than just "next pro"

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#398

Post by jajko » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:34 PM UTC

sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

> if you want to solve problems and build stuff

Not everybody is like that, even in software. I mean sure, creative aspect is very cool, but its fraction of any senior job, including most bigger startups from what I've heard. Even my current corporate job which started 12 years ago was pure dev in the beginning, now its maybe 20-30%. Responsibilities, personal growth, but also business grew in complexity and IT landscape and various regulations governing it exploded and keep exploding. I know stuff very few other do, so I get involved continuously into tons of efforts.

As they say, if you work manually hard work rest with mental challenges, and vice versa. Wood working must be cool since you create visible results with your hands and there is certainly some physical effort. I don't seek further creativity TBH, I look for extreme/adrenaline sports, be it climbing, ski alpinism, paragliding and few other similar (but also super chill diving to cover all elements and balance intensity). And ie in climbing, finding out how to climb some new route that is hard and scary for you is extremely rewarding, a literal creative ballet on vertical rock face.

Till kids came, this was making me properly happy and fulfilled to 120% since I was doing something every evening, every weekend, every vacation combined with 3rd world backpacking. Plus it made me super healthy and more focused on healthy eating too, became quite attractive to women since all this changes visuals but also confidence and overall persona for the better in aspects many women notice.

With small kids, and few non-horrible injuries I am now somewhere in the middle now, but kids are top priority, rest are not that important now (folks who keep going the same way/pace after having kid(s) I don't respect, it shows later on those kids in all kinds of bad ways). I know I have skillset to show them later some pretty awesome places and activities, but will let them go their own way. Just managing maximum possible off screen time since thats cancer for young soul and sugary stuff since thats cancer for body, now its easy and they follow our examples so they happily much some bio carrots and ignore cakes.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#399

Post by brazzy » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:35 PM UTC

tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

> I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward.)

That's one of the most absurd hyperboles (or the most detached-from-realiy statements) I have ever seen. That would mean only one out of 100,000 people is doing "real" work. Or if you spread it evenly, less than one third of a second per working day.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#400

Post by ahartman00 » Fri, May 03, 2024, 6:37 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #246

_yb2s wrote: post #239

I don't understand why more adults don't have awesome hobbies... most of my childhood friends don't seem to do anything fun now as adults. I really love physical things I can do with my body as a counterbalance to working on the computer- weight lifting, woodworking, and sailing add a lot of value to my life, and have gotten me outdoors and in shape. I'm currently building a wood sailboat in my garage together with m…

Yeah, sure can name a lot of friends that consume: mainly gaming and streaming. Has the curve on the creator/consumer axis shifted in recent times or has it always been skewed toward consuming? Or is there instead a social axis that has been waning recently? I'm thinking of the once popular Bridge card game or bowling leagues as examples...

I remember in math class in high school, we had a project where we analyzed hours of tv watching per day. Quite a few people watched like 6 hours of tv a day. I'd say its been heavily skewed towards consuming for a while. I would also say that gaming and watching streams can have a social aspect too, though that depends. If anything there is more of a social aspect? At least for me I talk to people on twitch regularly.