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Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

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Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#391
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Paramount Decrees way back in the 1940s/1950s: that's why Hollywood studios cannot produce movies and own the theaters which exhibit them. It's also similar to the (much more complex) reasons TV Service Providers (DirectTV, Spectrum, XFinity et. al) are separate from TV Networks, and why you don't see Disney trying to buy, say, DirectTV. Of course, streaming upended almost all of that.

You seem to be correct about the studio/theater bit, but Comcast owns both NBC and Xfinity, so clearly that bit of intended separation ain't working.

If you look at many older anti-trust cases from before 1970s, the bar for successful enforcement often seems unbelievably low when comparing it to how things are today. Take a look at this, for example: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/370/294/

But then there was a drastic change in approach to anti-trust during the Reagan era:

"Bork argues that the original intent of antitrust laws as well as economic efficiency makes consumer welfare and the protection of competition, rather than competitors, the only goals of antitrust law. Thus, while it was appropriate to prohibit cartels that fix prices and divide markets and mergers that create monopolies, practices that are allegedly exclusionary, such as vertical agreements and price discrimination, did not harm consumers and so should not be prohibited."

"From 1977 to 2007, the Supreme Court of the United States repeatedly adopted views stated in The Antitrust Paradox in such cases as Continental Television, Inc. v. GTE Sylvania, Inc., 433 U.S. 36 (1977), Broadcast Music, Inc. v. CBS, Inc., NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma, Spectrum Sports, Inc. v. McQuillan, State Oil Co. v. Khan, Verizon v. Trinko, and Leegin Creative Leather Products, Inc. v. PSKS, Inc., legalizing many practices previously prohibited."

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Antitrust_Paradox)

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#392
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

afaik, scalpers will often be selling tickets that have been bought speculatively in large blocks during pre-sale or when sale starts. this is a whole very complex side industry in itself, and being able to get those large chunks of cash up-front/early is beneficial for the artists/promoters/venues for lots of reasons. obv. this doesn't really apply to a super popular artist who is going to sell out on the first day,…

Interesting! To translate to the language of stock and bond offerings: TicketMaster ~ bookrunner/sponsor; scalper ~ underwriter; The general population cannot participate in IPOs, just like we cannot buy primary-market tickets to popular shows.

yeah, as i understand it - i did a lot of research on this for a service i was building way back - these third parties (like scalpers) are useful because they actually find the "true" price of the tickets and, through the resale services, a good chunk of that extra money makes it back to the ticketing companies/promoters/artists. i wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of these scalping operations are actually being run (secretly) by the ticketing companies and promoters themselves, or at least with their tacit approval and some revenue sharing.

so, it's a hard one to solve because it actually ends up generating more revenue for the promoters/venues and (sometimes) the artists. but the audience, who have the least power in the relationship, get screwed. well, my feeling is we/they get screwed, but many others would say this is "just capitalism".

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#393
post #312
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, then it also falls to her and her team to handle permits, hiring employees for the concert (and this would be a one time thing for those employees?), training, arranging materials, foods, and anything else, figure out parking and transportation, manage any necessary insurance, and whatever else is needed. A venue is more than having a place, it's having everything necessary to handle an immense volume of p…

Cirque du Soleil does this. They always setup their own venue on an open ground, but I think that's more for consistency of their layout and apparatus.

They used to do this. They started running at least some of their shows at existing large venues a while ago, sadly.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then perform smaller venues and ration tickets to your most-devoted fans. Companies end up bankrupt with your line of thinking. Assuming infrastructure is sufficient for each situation to be profitable is magical thinking.

> Companies end up bankrupt with your line of thinking The point is artists want to have their cake and eat it too. Any artist performing at a stadium could make a solid profit performing at non-TM 5 to 20k-seat arena while charging a similar (or lower) price. They don't because it's more lucrative to perform at a 70,000-seat stadium. LiveNation is a monopolist. But they also give many market participants cover to ch…

> Any artist performing at a stadium could make a solid profit performing at non-TM 5 to 20k-seat arena while charging a similar (or lower) price.

There you go, magical thinking again.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers care about the final ticket price. So if TM charges less fees the artist can just charge more face value until they reach the same equilibrium. Anyone that thinks consumers will be paying less is deluded.

Exactly. Or ticket prices and fees will stay the same, and artists' share of fees will go up (it's not zero today).

You're missing the point. Live nation's control over the infrastructure of live music means they increase the costs of tours. Increased security, transport, and venue costs increase ticket prices.

All of these price increases have margin, which goes to Live Nation in the end.

TM will then say "ticket prices are increasing due to increase costs!" and skirt scrutiny of the fact that they're just diverting higher monetary amounts to companies they own and control.

It's a cartel of vertical integration.

They also squeeze artist's revenue by doing the same. They can only do this because they control so much of the market. Control that is anti-competitive and prevents the free-market pricing you describe.

The picture is bleak. The last 3 gigs I have been to, Live Nation owned:

Ticket supply and distribution (Ticket Master), the venue, the security (ShowSec), the tour buses and logistics, the catering at the venue, the promoter, ...

They control all the costs and competition in the market. If Showsec do the security for all their venues, nobody can compete on cost. Same with everything else.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#397
post #371
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, these geniuses are really doing a good job there. last time they "blocked" a grocery merger, the divested stores were sold to basically a mom and pop operation (haggen) who had no idea how to run a large chain and immediately went bankrupt, and most of the stores either stayed empty or were later re-bought by the big bad merged company they were supposedl reining in! Wow, big win for consumers who now have not…

Your stance is that preventing monopolies, as required by law, is _bad_ for consumers? Historically, what do monopolies do when they capture a market is the opposite of lower prices and increase choice for the consumer.

Sorry for the long delay, but: Defining the grocery market as just supermarkets is the foolish thing I disagree with. Walmart, Target, Amazon, even Dollar General — along with Blue Apron and their ilk - and ethnic grocers - are all competitors of the supermarket. Kroger and Albertsons, even as a single unit, can’t simply jack prices up because Walmart and Target would LOVE to take all their customers, and easily will if they aren’t price-competitive. We already have competition and the notion that we wouldn’t if 2 supermarkets merged is lunacy. Honestly, I have a choice of either of the supermarket chains in question and I primarily frequent the one closest to me. I don’t cross-shop them against each other, but there are some things I buy at Walmart because I’ve learned it’s a better deal.

And yes, when regulators are so ham-fisted as to literally destroy many neighborhoods’ only grocery store with their dumb divestiture demands, yes, that was bad for consumers!

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