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Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

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Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"life is the process from birth until death" "life is the way to make anything happen to you" without a body (via life), a consciousness cant do anything

It is amazing this (perhaps pithy) comment is so down voted, yet you do make one very appropriate observation. Without a body a consciousness cannot do anything. The obvious answer the so-called-science occult refuse to entertain is that consciousness is the universe inflecting itself and life is a subjective scope of potential capacitating this consciousness. Life is the vessel and consciousness the universe peering…

> It is amazing this (perhaps pithy) comment is so down voted

Socrates, Jesus, Lao-tzu, Bodhidharma, Buddha - all were outright killed or expelled and lived very lonely lives.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"life is the process from birth until death" "life is the way to make anything happen to you" without a body (via life), a consciousness cant do anything

It is amazing this (perhaps pithy) comment is so down voted, yet you do make one very appropriate observation. Without a body a consciousness cannot do anything. The obvious answer the so-called-science occult refuse to entertain is that consciousness is the universe inflecting itself and life is a subjective scope of potential capacitating this consciousness. Life is the vessel and consciousness the universe peering…

life is the state that a consciousness is combined with a body.

at death the consciousness separates from the body.

consciousness is composed of energy so it doesn't just disappear at death.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing this (perhaps pithy) comment is so down voted, yet you do make one very appropriate observation. Without a body a consciousness cannot do anything. The obvious answer the so-called-science occult refuse to entertain is that consciousness is the universe inflecting itself and life is a subjective scope of potential capacitating this consciousness. Life is the vessel and consciousness the universe peering…

What's a body? It doesn't have to be anything more than ones and zeros.

I would like to give you an example in that which is visible for your understanding.

in order for a tree to reproduce, it must sprout first, and have a life in which it produces a flower, which gets pollinated, generally speaking. The important point is that from that flower which is pollinated, eventually, a fruit is formed. When the fruit is formed and detaches, that detached fruit is the state of death. even if the tree dies, it can revive through what it stored within its fruit.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes you wonder what comes after AI. What's the "higher order" after AI that exists today or that will exist in 10 years? I'd guess we will never understand that level of intelligence, unless AI augments our brains somehow.

> unless AI augments our brains somehow Frankly, the more I think about AI, the less sense it makes to me that biological, single-body humans have any place in the future. As soon as we can digitize our minds, why wouldn't people begin to do so? Bodies could be inhabited at will, and death will be a thing of the past as we're able to store backups. I'm sure some will refuse and be left behind, just as we have Amish c…

For something that would be closer to home for this audience, imagine having a backup of the brain of a Founder CEO to consult after they pass away.

If it was a faithful backup or simulation, it's not a stretch to realize we can can will let this being make decisions for the company.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have any tools that could possibly detect bacterial life anywhere where we don't have a physical presence at the moment. That is, even if Venus were teeming with simple life on every square cm, I don't think any of our instruments could pick it up unless we send a probe to collect and analyze samples. So, at the moment we have no hope of detecting this type of life outside the solar system even if it…

We've got photos from the surface of Venus: https://www.planetary.org/articles/every-picture-from-venus-... It's visibly not covered in moss, fungus, grasses, algae, slime. On Earth we talk about hot hydrothermal vents underwater: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/survival-at-hydrothermal-vent... - this says " the Pompeii worm [...] is one of the most heat-resistant multicellular animals on the planet, able to withstand…

Agreed - Venus is particularly unlikely to have any life because of its temperatures, I wasn't trying to claim otherwise, just choosing a near neighbor for which we haven't ever tried to look at its rocks through a microscope.

However, those pictures don't tell us anything about the presence of microscopic life. On Earth at least, only a quite tiny subset of unicellular life-forms leave any trace large enough to be visible at that level of magnification. Even if they are there in quite large quantities. "Teeming" is of course a relative term, but imagine that there were 1000 unicellular organisms similar to an amoeba on every square cm of those pictures. Would you expect to see anything?

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#396
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that you can want something, and that you are a subset of the universe, then the universe wants something (in the form of you).

Isn't this a category error? Just because my stomach lining is wet doesn't mean I'm wet.

A subset of you are wet, yes.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#397
Hi to All, and warm thanks Denis. More, thank you for the attention to this Stu - Andrea paper now online on OSF and arXiv. We will submit it soon.

The origin of life field is many decades old, wonderful, and wonderfully fragmented. The two main approaches are: i. Template replication. ii. Metabolism first. I am a guilty party with respect to "metabolism first". In 1971 I realized that in a sufficiently diverse and complex chemical reaction system, self reproducing collectively autocatalytic sets would arise as a first order phase transition. Such sets have now been engineered using DNA, RNA, and peptides.

A stunning set of recent results led by Joana Xavier has now demonstrated small molecule collectively autocatalytic sets, with NO DNA, RNA, or peptide polymers, in all 6700 prokaryotes. I am a co-author. Joana did all the work, entirely.

It is not yet certain that these sets actually reproduce in vitro - a critical set tests to be done. If yes, I think this almost rules out a template first view. Such a template system would have to evolve RNA enzymes to catalyze some "connected metabolism" to create the building blocks for the template replicating systems. But there is no reason at all why such a connected metabolism on its own, without RNA polymer enzymes, would be collectively autocatalytic.

Joana's sets create not only amino acids and ATP, but the central rudiments of linked energy metabolisms.

I truly think the on line paper is basically correct. Living cells really are Kantian Wholes that achieve Catalytic, Constraint and Spatial Closure. Via these, cells literally construct themselves. Their very boundary condition molecules constrain the release of energy in many non-equilbirum process into the few degrees of freedom that construct the very same boundary conditions. Entirely new, and due to Mael Montevil and Mateo Missio. I missed it for 15 years. Rather dumb, thrilled that they did it.

The marriage of the TAP process with the theory for the first order phase transition of collective autocatalysis, TAP-RAF really works. The evolving complexity and diversity of the system increases, then the first order phase transition arises with probably almost 1.0. If YES, the emergence of life in the evolving universe really is expected.

Then two major surprises. Due to Constriant Closure, the way a cell reproduces itself is not at all the way von Neumann envisioned in his self reproducing automaton. The familiar distinction between hardware and software vanishes. This must be deeply important, but its meanings are still very unclear to me.

The second major surprise is that Andrea and I are confident we have demonstrated, and punished as "A Third Transition in Science?" J. Roy. Soc. Interface April 14, 2023, that we can use no mathematics based on set theory to deduce the ever - creative emergence of novelties in the evolving biosphere. If correct, as we believe, this takes the evolving biosphere entirely beyond the famous Newtonian Paradigm that is the basis of all Classical and Quantum Physics.

The evolving biosphere is a non-deducible propagating construction, not an entitled deduction. The evolving biosphere is not a Computation at all, it is a non-deducible construction. If so, why do we believe with Turing and AI, that the becoming of the world, mind, everything is algorithmic? It is not. Andrea and I published, "The world is not a theorem". If correct, physicists will have to consider what this means. So do we all.

Warm wishes,

Stu

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#399
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t seem opaque to me and I’m no scientist. Pretty clearly expressed imo.

So you didn't look any of these terms up? Would love an explanation of * Kantian Wholes * Catalytic Closure * Constraint Closure * Spatial Closure * a first-order phase transition to molecular reproduction * phylogeny of metabolisms * template replication Thanks

They were explained clearly in the article I found. Although those last three are self-explanatory if you know what the individual words mean, they’re in the dictionary.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I think there's a lot of work here that needs to be done to make your argument stronger. > You are giving a very poor retread of 200+ year old German idealism. You kept putting me down because my ideas don't jibe with your readings. Now you're comparing philosophy with physics. I am trying stay away from such pedantic bibliographic review. You keep appealing to authority to minimize my contributions. This is why…

> Kant et al are a cul de sac in this tradition. Perhaps, yet how would you know if you refuse to engage with it? I'm not sure how to respond when someone insists on remaining ignorant of alternative viewpoints and then suggests that any attempt to point out relevant arguments against their position is victimizing them.

So refusing to engage with you and your readings is refusing to engage at all with the subject and insisting on ignorance?

I saw the self importance a mile away and I said I wanted none of it. Like I said, I dislike German philosophers verbosity and I'm getting to dislike its fans' self importance.

edit: you've called my ideas half baked, you've called me ignorant. it's pretty clear to me now you just wanted to play vocabulary ping pong with dead man's ideas to feel smart. I pretty much intuited it, and regretted every engagement with you so far.

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