Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#391

Post by helboi4 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:28 PM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #339

helboi4 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your example paragraph. I think it is only beneficial for highly motivated senior engineers with families to work remotely. As a junior who doesn't know what I'm doing half of the time and feels demotivated without support, and as a single young person without a family that got cut off from building a community because of COVID, when I have worked mainly remotely I've been severely depressed. Not seeing…

Well said. When I share a similar perspective some people seem to assume I'm extremely extroverted, or don't have friends or hobbies outside of work. I'm not very extroverted and I do have a full life outside of work. I still prefer a decent office to WFH, which makes me feel extremely isolated after awhile.

Yeah, I'm not extremely extroverted either which is an issue because trying to make sure I reach the minimum amount of socialising I need to not tank my mental health is quite hard for me when I'm expected to do it 100% by myself. When you have a life at the office, you have a certain amount of passive social interaction and I think that's actually easier for people who are a bit shy. I certainly have a few friends left from uni and hobbies outside work, but trying to make new friends without any settings where you meet every day is quite hard imo. And I do not have as many friends as I would like so it feels hopeless for me. Or it did until I joined a sociable workplace with compulsory office time and other young people.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#392

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:29 PM UTC

lacrimacida wrote: post #370

steveBK123 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've generally had a 30-40min commute most of my career, but also generally had a flexible enough start time that exact to the minute arrival at my desk was not performance impacting. Unfortunately a lot of things conflate over time as you become more senior to generally make your commute worse. For me - my last 2 roles have earlier required start time, with a hard start (morning meeting / standup / L3 support presen…

> For me I'd rather work 11-12 hours/day at home then go into office How sustainable is to work 11-12 hours a day though? If we do 5 hours of intense work and the rest is spent in meetings or other overhead activities make 8 hours just enough to make it sustainable over long periods of time…

Let's put it this way. I'm expected to be readily accessible for 9-10 hours/day, and reachable for some hours outside of that. I have some operational responsibilities in the morning, maybe 1~3 hours of meetings and fully understood we get in far less than 5 hours of intense work. People are generally cool with me being totally away from desk for lunch.

How I spend the time in between in terms of doing research/reading/etc is up to me. If I had to do this in an office setting it would suck to be stuck there when stuff does come up.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#393

Post by helboi4 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:31 PM UTC

RGamma wrote: post #292

helboi4 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bro what sort of dystopiian offices have you been working in. I've never had that experience. People are always somewhat intersting and like to actually talk. There are some off days but it's never like that. And never ever have I had a colleague spontaneously try to have casual zoom conversation with me while remotely working. I've had people never turn their cameras on. And meanwhile, I'm here, a childless 20-sth,…

Why not have a Teamspeak/Discord like system where you can hang around all day in various rooms (e.g. virtual bureaus) and do the "office chit chat"? The meeting model is more like phone calls and, while I adore WFH, not well suited for that.

1) I'm not a robot. Humans exist in physical space and it is necessary for our mental health to see other people in person. We cannot get our social battery filled by virtual interaction alone. 2) Otther people don't participate in these things very often when I try to suggest them. People naturally talk to each other in physical spaces. Therefore, the solution is the office.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#394

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:31 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #185

epolanski wrote: post #173

The fundamental issue I see in this debate is a lack of sensibility and nuance in human nature. The whole matter is debated (understandably in a way) on big numbers and averages. I could write a long post but I'll cut it short to this paragraph stating that humans differ. For some commuting is stressful, the offices are noisy and full of distractions and those individuals may thrive in a remote setup. There's people…

I would add one major change that the work from home experiment has achieved - its made the opportunity cost of the work commute clear. This is a time cost paid for by the worker. As you stated, this is variable. If you have a short commute, or you like it, or you get some exercise - office is great. If you hate your commute, if its 3 hours in pollution and traffic - not so much. Earlier the position was that WFH was…

It’s really more than that. I live in the city, my office is 7 minutes away most mornings.

The transition time of arrival and departure is easily 30-45m daily, on my employers dime.

I do 50% and it works for me. End of the day most of the problems associated with this issue are workplace and cultural issues that come to a head with remote/hybrid. The only novel dysfunctions with employees that I see (and I’m an exec with about 900) are people doing things like secretly moving away and abusing medical accommodation. There’s also an issue where people build their life around remote and are disappointed when they miss opportunities, but are unwilling to meet in the middle.

End of the day. The lazy idiots are just as lazy, grinders grind, and smart people continue to be smart.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#395

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:32 PM UTC

mrweiner wrote: post #383

steveBK123 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took on a role with earlier/longer expected hours, but with the agreement I would do it remotely. And yes it's for a lot more money, not just an extra 10-20% for the extra 10-20% hours.

Ah, good on ya!

To be fair though, my previous role I found the day got longer during/post COVID because senior managers suddenly felt empowered to schedule meetings earlier and later.

In some cases, it was getting brought into more senior manager meetings I previously wasn't privy to, that had always been too early (7-8am).

In other cases, it was moving those same managers goal posts because they'd always been online early and hey if you want access to them, the only place to find time on their calendar was like 8am or 5pm.

I know A LOT of senior IC / team lead people who fell into this trap during COVID.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#396

Post by genman » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:32 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #341

intended wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add one major change that the work from home experiment has achieved - its made the opportunity cost of the work commute clear. This is a time cost paid for by the worker. As you stated, this is variable. If you have a short commute, or you like it, or you get some exercise - office is great. If you hate your commute, if its 3 hours in pollution and traffic - not so much. Earlier the position was that WFH was…

BTW this is where commute by public transport shines. My 30 minutes to the office are my dedicated reading time, an hour a day. If instead I had to drive, that would be lost time, because paying enough attention to the book distracts enough from driving to add unnecessary risk.

It depends. In my case the commute is a (seriously) bumpy bus ride that takes 2-3 times more than by car (the bus has stops and it takes a longer route and I have to change the bus at least once, that adds extra latency). Fortunately the bus is relatively empty in my stop so I don't have to stand.

This means that I couldn't read anything. Shaking of the bus also gives me time to time a mild headache. Now if the ride was smoother (like a train or a tram) and I still could sit and read then indeed I would agree with you.

Fortunately I don't have to commute very often so I can tolerate this to a degree but if I had to commute every day then it would add considerable extra strain into my life.

Normally the day should be divided into 3 equal parts: 1 sleep time, 2 work time, 3 personal time.

Commute time effectively steals from either personal time or from sleep time and this comes on top of getting ready for work that is also a major waste of time in the mornings.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#397

Post by mlrtime » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

helboi4 wrote: post #296

mlrtime wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, young people coming up in their career are at a disadvantage working remotely. My story is an anecdote, and moving seats was not an option. For this situation I might as well be remote if I'm not next to the team.

Yes, your story is an isolated and minor anecdote and my story is a massive social ill that I am furious that older people want to overlook and then wonder why younger peoples mental health and productivity is getting constantly worse. So I don't appreciate you bringing up your anecdote as if it has any relevance to what I'm saying. p.s. I spend most of my working day with headphones on, it is perfectly possible.

You're lack of appreciation maybe related to your fury.

Younger peoples mental health has a lot more to do with wasting time in a office, but you can keep thinking that if it helps. I'd wager that younger people could learn a bit from older in this area.

In the end, we do what we think is best and I'll continue heavily advocating for remote work. Good luck!

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#398

Post by spacemadness » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #173

The fundamental issue I see in this debate is a lack of sensibility and nuance in human nature. The whole matter is debated (understandably in a way) on big numbers and averages. I could write a long post but I'll cut it short to this paragraph stating that humans differ. For some commuting is stressful, the offices are noisy and full of distractions and those individuals may thrive in a remote setup. There's people…

I’ve seen team managers blame design work being poor or unproductive on having remote workers when most of the team isn’t. And then when everyone is flown in they claim a great victory when the output is the same or worse. I think many managers with poor performing teams are using the opportunity to blame poor performance on remote with zero data to back that up. It’s simply a useful group to blame for all your problems often due to hiring a team of less experienced people so you can pay them less.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#399

Post by michaelmrose » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #295

bargle0 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, an hour spent commuting is an hour stolen from one’s children.

Hyperbole and language like this is exactly why it's so hard to have this debate in any rational way. The onsite crowd says that all their WFH colleagues are playing video games and doing laundry all day while the WFH crowd says employers are stealing from their employees' children.

I don't think the WFH crowd minds others going into the office. The pro onsite crowd on the other hand wants others forced into the office because their choice is unsupportable if people are given a free choice.

>98% of workers want to work remote at least some of the time 65% report wanting to work remote all of the time.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statisti...

If 1/3 of your workforce meets 2 days a week your average utilization is about 14%. The logical conclusion is a ghost town that goes away as soon as your employer cuts the building off like a diseased hand.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#400

Post by hiatus » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

bongodongobob wrote: post #334

hiatus wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't happen because many C-suite people have commercial property investments I keep reading this but have seen no evidence. Are you saying executives are invested in the buildings their companies occupy?

Lol what? 100% yes. It's super common to have a separate holding company for the real estate that the business leases from.

Sure, can you give examples of companies whose executives own the holding company their business leases real estate from?