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The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

charliechaplin.com

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Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#391

Post by kian »

riku_iki wrote: post #389
kian wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, help me with this calculation, since I clearly lack the proper exchange rate -- how many gallons of excess gasoline or votes for the wrong 'local' (rather than national or state) politician equals being nice to people for a lifetime or helping those less fortunate? I get that you're trying to say that voting for the wrong local politician might lead to more 'less fortunates' -- principled individuals could ar…

> wrong 'local' (rather than national or state) politician I meant to say blindly voting for local politician going for state/national office just because he is local regardless of policies. > but how exactly does burning excess gasoline, and at what exchange rate? few hints how to build estimations: - check how much money Western countries paid to autocratic regimes for oil/gas. Check estimates how many people were…

Now that you've given me a bunch of homework (rather than an exchange rate derived from that research), I can spend a bunch of my time to measure the human misery inflicted by driving at all (and how much extra is inflicted using a gas-inefficient vehicle). Of course, presumably several people will have died as a result of the electricity and gas used to manufacture and move the food that I will have required to spend the time used for that research [that you have presumably already done? For the moment, I'll trust your numbers and your intent, if you're willing to share them to save a few lives].

I do have the following estimate range for the value of a statistical life in typical Western democracies -- "In Western countries and other liberal democracies, estimates for the value of a statistical life typically range from US$1 million—US$10 million; for example, the United States FEMA estimated the value of a statistical life at US$7.5 million in 2020".

Should we be applying this value for lives in autocratic gas dictatorships, or should we be using a smaller number? Again, since you've clearly spent the time on this already, I'll defer to your calculations if you're willing to share them.

Now all we need is a measure of the value of human kindness and what the appropriate discount rate is for local kindness vs exported kindness and present lives vs future lives, along with a measure of the inelasticity of demand for gasoline, to take into account the actual impact of us not making a purchase [since a gallon unconsumed by someone here does not equate to a gallon left in the ground or unconsumed].

Additionally, do these autocratic regimes kill fewer or more people when they are earning less and thus have a more tenuous hold on power? Presumably if we all reduced our gas consumption entirely, we might even be able to induce a violent revolution to overthrow them. Those are usually pretty bloodless, and I haven't ever heard of revolutionaries becoming the new autocratic regime before. You wouldn't happen to have any pointers on how to calculate any of the above, or even better, calculations you've already done yourself, would you?

Finally, for bonus points, would you care to share the number of statistical lives that you ruin per year to support you and your family's own personal transportation and living habits so that I can have an idea of your revealed preference for following through on your expressed beliefs and your own actual personal exchange rate on the value of your life and happiness vs strangers across the globe?

[ I should probably add, at this point, that I don't drive anywhere at all, and I take mass transportation when I do travel, which is very infrequently ]

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#392

Post by riku_iki »

kian wrote: post #391
riku_iki wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wrong 'local' (rather than national or state) politician I meant to say blindly voting for local politician going for state/national office just because he is local regardless of policies. > but how exactly does burning excess gasoline, and at what exchange rate? few hints how to build estimations: - check how much money Western countries paid to autocratic regimes for oil/gas. Check estimates how many people were…

Now that you've given me a bunch of homework (rather than an exchange rate derived from that research), I can spend a bunch of my time to measure the human misery inflicted by driving at all (and how much extra is inflicted using a gas-inefficient vehicle). Of course, presumably several people will have died as a result of the electricity and gas used to manufacture and move the food that I will have required to spen…

> a measure of the inelasticity of demand for gasoline, to take into account the actual impact of us not making a purchase [since a gallon unconsumed by someone here does not equate to a gallon left in the ground]

I challenge this. Demand is totally elastic, extraction has its cost, once demand falls, prices fall, many extraction projects become unprofitable.

> Should we be applying this value for lives in autocratic gas dictatorships, or should we be using a smaller number?

You don't need monetary value. You can just find that each galon costs XeY lives, and average American consumer consumes NeM lives with his gasolin burning annually.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#393

Post by kian »

riku_iki wrote: post #392
kian wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that you've given me a bunch of homework (rather than an exchange rate derived from that research), I can spend a bunch of my time to measure the human misery inflicted by driving at all (and how much extra is inflicted using a gas-inefficient vehicle). Of course, presumably several people will have died as a result of the electricity and gas used to manufacture and move the food that I will have required to spen…

> a measure of the inelasticity of demand for gasoline, to take into account the actual impact of us not making a purchase [since a gallon unconsumed by someone here does not equate to a gallon left in the ground] I challenge this. Demand is totally elastic, extraction has its cost, once demand falls, prices fall, many extraction projects become unprofitable. > Should we be applying this value for lives in autocratic…

So, again, you've done this research, right? Why don't you give me some numbers? Your lack of concern for the people I'll have to statistically kill to answer these questions you've posed is a bit concerning.

Although, with your belief in infinite demand elasticity for gasoline, I'm starting to lose a little faith in the correctness of your calculations, I'd still love to hear them. I won't even ask for the calculation itself -- just give me the exchange rate you've already calculated of gallons of gas per statistical life, please.

I'll also note that you don't seem to be very forthcoming about how many statistical murders you commit to maintain your way of life while you pontificate about the immorality of others' choices in this regard.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#394

Post by riku_iki »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #359
riku_iki wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's like saying I disagree with "that's like that". I think your analogy is very far. Calories metrics are actually much better researched and measured compared to human decency.

Human decency has been investigate, discussed, analyzed, dramatised since millenia, however not by using numbers.

> however not by using numbers.

yes, which makes all previous results subjective and unreliable.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#395

Post by riku_iki »

kian wrote: post #393
riku_iki wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a measure of the inelasticity of demand for gasoline, to take into account the actual impact of us not making a purchase [since a gallon unconsumed by someone here does not equate to a gallon left in the ground] I challenge this. Demand is totally elastic, extraction has its cost, once demand falls, prices fall, many extraction projects become unprofitable. > Should we be applying this value for lives in autocratic…

So, again, you've done this research, right? Why don't you give me some numbers? Your lack of concern for the people I'll have to statistically kill to answer these questions you've posed is a bit concerning. Although, with your belief in infinite demand elasticity for gasoline, I'm starting to lose a little faith in the correctness of your calculations, I'd still love to hear them. I won't even ask for the calculati…

> to maintain your way of life

you don't know what is my way of life, so can't note anything about this.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#396

Post by kian »

riku_iki wrote: post #395
kian wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, again, you've done this research, right? Why don't you give me some numbers? Your lack of concern for the people I'll have to statistically kill to answer these questions you've posed is a bit concerning. Although, with your belief in infinite demand elasticity for gasoline, I'm starting to lose a little faith in the correctness of your calculations, I'd still love to hear them. I won't even ask for the calculati…

> to maintain your way of life you don't know what is my way of life, so can't note anything about this.

>> you don't know what is my way of life, so can't note anything about this.

"I'll also note that you don't seem to be very forthcoming"

Literally the only thing I noted was that you didn't seem to be very forthcoming about what that way of life was -- something you appear to have confirmed in the comment above.

Since you do not seem to be concerned with addressing any of the substantive points in our conversation, and seem more concerned about telling others how they should do hard work rather than sharing the fruits of your labor (if indeed you have done it at all, and aren't just grandstanding for internet points) -- let's leave this discussion at I won't be statistically murdering any innocents to get at answers that you don't think are important enough to share, and that I hope that in your personal life you still choose kindness over 'right-think' that is statistically unlikely to make a difference at the state or national level -- or, heck, choose both.

Either way, thanks for helping clarify your position -- even if it isn't exactly the one you thought you were elucidating ;)

Happy holidays, I hope your personal exchange rate allows for you delivering presents and possibly visiting far away family!

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#397

Post by qingcharles »

er0k wrote: post #384
qingcharles wrote: post #44

I always liked this version with music added: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo I remember sharing a jail cell with a 19-year-old Mexican kid once and we were talking about the guards being assholes and he said "they're like machine men"; and I said "with machine minds and machine hearts?" and he was like "YES! You know it?!" -- it was a good moment, we spent the next few days trying to remember the whole s…

I like mos def's version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzvg_hCCn8Y

Awesome!

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#398

Post by concordDance »

dang wrote: post #386
concordDance wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my attempt at a substantive and low flame bait comment on the topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38680523 I'd be interested in whether this meets the bar but once again you've got 5 million other users to see to so if you don't have the time you don't have the time.

"Just asking questions" isn't a low-flamebait strategy for that material. Worse, your account is giving the impression of mostly being interested in promoting it, and that's not an ok use of HN, so please stop.

Meta: confused, upset

INFO: I've gone through my last 200 comments on HN[1] trying to figure out what it is I'm trying to promote. Other than the last few comments it seems to be heavily AI and Musk related with nothing related to Nazis, Eugenics or other such things.

I've also done full history searches for various things that could be the "it" you refer to, but my HBD discussion was about three years and several thousand comments ago and I have only a few posts that mention "eugenics" and they're all about word meanings, so I think you are referring to my repeated attempts to lecture people on meanings of words (trying to teach clear thinking about word definitions and ideally teaching people about why Tabooing words[2] is an important rationality technique). But while they are admittedly quite common, they actually seem to get almost no engagement and would be quite ineffective flame bait.

I will still stop as that's what you want though. :(

[1] Up to here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=20&prefix=false&q...

[2] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/WBdvyyHLdxZSAMmoz/taboo-your...

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#399

Post by steveBK123 »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #390
steveBK123 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and sometimes I think “democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried” is especially true in providing voters a put option. That is - we are pretty good at removing bad governments. I don't think I would argue that democracies produce the best candidates, political class and leaders. However it provides voters the ability to remove candidates at the polls every X years,…

What I keep thinking when reading your comment is “what kind of democracy?” What anarchists want is “democracy” too but it looks very, very different to the form of government we have in most “democracies”. Anarchists want political control by federations of cooperatives, or federations of cooperatives of cooperatives. What we have in most “democracies” is “representative democracy” where every few years we exercise…

We can barely get 40% turnout on huge generationally dramatic elections but we’re gonna vote weekly on minutae?

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#400

Post by broscillator »

Geisterde wrote: post #228
oddevan wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad you have a job and stable employment! When I think of who Amazon has "ground into dust," it's not Microsoft and Google. It's Barnes & Noble, Borders, Waldenbooks, hundreds of thousands of small independent bookstores, small businesses that once worried about Walmart moving into the neighborhood now contending with the omnipresence of Amazon. Some of them adapt, yes. Some were going to close anyway, of course. Bu…

Books are an interesting topic. The cost of publishing through amazon is far more accessible for authors, and the cost of the books themselves has decreased. I dont have enough time in my day to keep up with how many credits I receive from my audible subscription. Digital distribution has made both writing and reading more accessible, its the middle man that got cut out. That is in the nature of innovation, it frees…

amazon bought book depository, which used to be the only alternative that shipped books to my country at reasonable prices. No more.

There's another value that's lost, more human, of just browsing a charming book store.

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