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23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

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Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You go to a bank (people often go their bank with some expectation of a better rate) or you use check online comparator to see what deal you can get. Then the bank will look at your current funds, the job you have, the earnings you have and after some abracadabra they will say yes or no. There is no building of trust the assessment is on what you have and what you are capable of. The credit is usually 1/3 of your sal…

It's also worth noting there is no singular credit score in the US. There are (at least) 3 agencies that generate credit reports. The "score" is usually the FICO score, but there are versions of FICO Score, and other scores. In France, how doe a lender know if you have other loans/debt outstanding? Or if you have a history of non-payment? Those two make up the majority of a credit score (35% payment history, 30% debt…

There is the "trust" component first: in your request, you list all your credits and the fact that you have failed a payment.

Then you provide the bank with your last three bank statements and your salary. They match the money movements with what they expect to see (a salary coming in, a payment going out, ...)

Finally, there is a centralized database of failed payments.

It works well, we do no have special problems with credits and how they are paid off (what helps is that there are compulsory insurances and protections for the credit-taker)

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#392
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They ought to be evaluated as if no TOS exists. Given the clear intent to defraud customers by misrepresenting the contract they were bound by, the claims should be evaluated under the TOS most favorable to the plaintiffs. The most favorable TOS is the one that's invalid because 23andMe didn't get anyone to actually agree, ergo the claims are evaluated as if no TOS exists. This is an attempt to undermine consumer pro…

> ABA needs to deal out swift punishment as one of the protectors of that system. This is part of the legal system. It shouldn't be, but it is. If you can toss a hundred issues the other party has to refute, you drive up legal costs to where litigation is no longer practical. The other side loses by default of not being able to afford litigation. The ABA is, indeed, one of the protectors of the legal system, and have…

> This is part of the legal system. It shouldn't be, but it is. If you can toss a hundred issues the other party has to refute, you drive up legal costs to where litigation is no longer practical. The other side loses by default of not being able to afford litigation.

You can very much be slapped by the judge and/or the ABA for doing that. I think there's certainly an argument that the bounds on a frivolous claim/motion are too narrow and/or the penalties are too low, but there are mechanisms to prevent that. From Livingston v Adirondack Beverage Company (1998)[1], a frivolous claim/motion occurs when:

> (1) "the 'factual contentions are clearly baseless,' such as when allegations are the product of delusion or fantasy;" or (2) "the claim is 'based on an indisputably meritless legal theory.'"

From there, the court can dismiss the case or order the offending party to pay reasonable expenses to the defense. The court can also sanction the offending lawyer, penalties vary by jurisdiction. In Federal court, this is governed by Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11. There aren't any hard limits on the court's power to sanction lawyers in there; it's whatever they think will deter the behavior. A quick search showed sanctions under Rule 11 reaching up into the millions, though commonly much lower.

> The ABA is, indeed, one of the protectors of the legal system, and have no vested interested in undermining it. The system means their constituents, lawyers, make more money.

I'm dubious that they are stupid enough to think that, and it does not line up with what I know from the lawyers I know/have known. The ABA has an incredibly privileged position that they can really only maintain through self-regulation. It's a private group that regulates who can represent people in public court; their position is tenuous to start with.

I think of late they may be over-emphasizing a lawyer's duty to vigorously defend their client to the detriment of some of the other ethical rules. I can see how they get there; of course as a defendant you want your lawyer to do everything to protect you, even if it might be a tad shady.

Perhaps the courts need to fire a warning shot that the ABA needs to course correct. I truly doubt the ABA is stupid enough to try to buck the judicial system. They are and always have been subservient to the courts. Watch a lawyer get chewed out by a judge sometime; they just have to sit there, take it, and say "yes, your honor" at the right time (god forbid you forget the honorific while getting chewed out).

> Footnote: The mistake you made is that 23andme isn't undermining the legal system, but rather, justice. The two are not the same.

The legal system purports to be an implementation of justice. The two are not separable, at least not without the legal system committing ritual suicide by telling the public that the two are separate. I'm not arguing that our legal system is just, but rather that they purport to be and that external appearance is integral to their legitimacy.

Openly acknowledging that the legal system isn't interested in justice would be a huge blow to their public support, which is effectively the only power they have. A populace that doesn't believe the legal system is just might as well just hand those powers over to the executive. It won't be just either, but it'll be swifter.

1: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-2nd-circuit/1286266.htm...

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm not mistaken, that's the point the person above you was making. Those stickers on dump trucks that say "Stay back 200 feet. Not responsible for broken windshields" are worthless from a legal perspective. They do absolutely nothing to remove liability from the truck driver/company. If a rock falls from their truck and cracks your windshield, they absolutely are responsible for any damages. Rather, their sole va…

Such a lawsuit, if one was filed, would be in civil court, where nothing is guaranteed. If, in the unlikely case that the suit was not settled and it actually went to jury, no judge would direct that jury that truckers "absolutely are responsible for any damages." If you are tailgating directly behind a rock truck with a big sign "stay back 200 feet" for an extended period of time, or end up right behind the truck be…

I disagree. Likely this type of suite would be handled in small claims court so there is no jury and no lawyers. Also, the law is really clear. There is no scenario where trucks are allowed to spill stuff on the road. The only argument they might try is to say that the rock didn't come from the truck but was kicked up off the road as they drove. But you know, that's probably not going to work if the truck was indeed carrying rocks. I think you might be giving lawyers too much credit. Really all they will do, is make it so painful for you to get in front of a judge, that you give up.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You go to a bank (people often go their bank with some expectation of a better rate) or you use check online comparator to see what deal you can get. Then the bank will look at your current funds, the job you have, the earnings you have and after some abracadabra they will say yes or no. There is no building of trust the assessment is on what you have and what you are capable of. The credit is usually 1/3 of your sal…

Honestly, I have no idea how other countries' banks make loan decisions. But I wouldn't be surprised if "after some abracadabra" involves reviewing some kind of centralized credit history.

(copied from a sibling comment)

There is the "trust" component first: in your request, you list all your credits and the fact that you have failed a payment. Then you provide the bank with your last three bank statements and your salary. They match the money movements with what they expect to see (a salary coming in, a payment going out, ...)

Finally, there is a centralized database of failed payments.

It works well, we do no have special problems with credits and how they are paid off (what helps is that there are compulsory insurances and protections for the credit-taker)

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "identifier"? For me, phone numbers have had reduced importance over the last couple of years. Most of my communication with other people are over various messaging apps.

Identifier as in, used for authentication and possibly even tied to your real name. Even messaging apps don't tend to have screen-names like AIM, they have phone numbers, including the so-called "privacy-focused" Signal. Tons of in-person services (govt, banks, etc) will also want one, and it may be used as yet another piece proving your real identity.

Alright. Where I live, phone numbers are public info and not secret so here they are not used when authenticating yourself against a bank or similar.

Using a phone _number_ to authenticate yourself against the government seems completely bizarre to me.

I understand that leakage of phone numbers become a problem if you use them for those kinds of things. But honestly, using them for authentication seems crazy from a security point of view.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#396
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ABA needs to deal out swift punishment as one of the protectors of that system. This is part of the legal system. It shouldn't be, but it is. If you can toss a hundred issues the other party has to refute, you drive up legal costs to where litigation is no longer practical. The other side loses by default of not being able to afford litigation. The ABA is, indeed, one of the protectors of the legal system, and have…

> This is part of the legal system. It shouldn't be, but it is. If you can toss a hundred issues the other party has to refute, you drive up legal costs to where litigation is no longer practical. The other side loses by default of not being able to afford litigation. You can very much be slapped by the judge and/or the ABA for doing that. I think there's certainly an argument that the bounds on a frivolous claim/mot…

> You can very much be slapped by the judge and/or the ABA for doing that.

You can. The bar is very, very high. It's adequate to have a fig leaf of plausibility.

> In Federal court, this is governed by Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11.

I am most concerned about lower courts, and especially the lowest of the low. Go into a family court at some point, and see the lawyers lying and throwing around allegations they know to be false.

> Perhaps the courts need to fire a warning shot that the ABA needs to course correct

They very much need to do this.

> I truly doubt the ABA is stupid enough to try to buck the judicial system

I think there is a mistake here:

1) Judges are mostly lawyers and in ABA culture. It's not clear they'd want to buck the system.

2) There is no plausible alternative. The populace won't hand those powers over to the executive, since we have a constitution (and we're all indoctrinated into separation of powers since little kids, and even so, it's a good idea even with corruption in the judicial). The ABA's position is secure. For the ABA (not an individual lawyer) to be scared, there would need to be a plausible threat.

3) Being corrupt is the opposite of "openly acknowledging." By far the best thing we can do to address corruption is to openly acknowledge it, and then when things don't improve, to point fingers at the bottlenecks.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#397
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a lawsuit, if one was filed, would be in civil court, where nothing is guaranteed. If, in the unlikely case that the suit was not settled and it actually went to jury, no judge would direct that jury that truckers "absolutely are responsible for any damages." If you are tailgating directly behind a rock truck with a big sign "stay back 200 feet" for an extended period of time, or end up right behind the truck be…

I disagree. Likely this type of suite would be handled in small claims court so there is no jury and no lawyers. Also, the law is really clear. There is no scenario where trucks are allowed to spill stuff on the road. The only argument they might try is to say that the rock didn't come from the truck but was kicked up off the road as they drove. But you know, that's probably not going to work if the truck was indeed…

Small claims court is civil court

> the law is really clear

what law are you quoting? in what city/state/country?

I certainly agree that in many cases a rock truck causes damage to entirely innocent drivers who happened to get in the vicinity of spilled rocks without ever intending to (for example if the rock truck passes them, or at intersections, etc.

However -- you said "they absolutely are responsible" and I'm saying, no, it depends. Rock trucks are annoying and dangerous but are clearly necessary for cities to build roads and other infrastructure. Unfortunately, it seems impossible to fully, absolutely secure a rock truck. If a rock truck company came to court prepared with evidence that it had followed (or exceeded) every safety and regulatory procedure, and perhaps that its accident rate is lower than industry average, and further, that the "victim" was tailgating right behind the rock truck (probably in attempt to pass) despite a prominent "stay back 200 feet" sign, even a small-claims judge might say, it's half-and-half, or -- especially if the truck had video of the other driver performing a dangerous maneuver -- that it's actually the driver's fault and therefore no liability from the rock truck company.

> Really all they will do, is make it so painful for you to get in front of a judge, that you give up.

because a dangerous driver will realize that their case is extremely weak due to failing to follow the 200-ft sign. mission accomplished.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I have no idea how other countries' banks make loan decisions. But I wouldn't be surprised if "after some abracadabra" involves reviewing some kind of centralized credit history.

(copied from a sibling comment) There is the "trust" component first: in your request, you list all your credits and the fact that you have failed a payment. Then you provide the bank with your last three bank statements and your salary. They match the money movements with what they expect to see (a salary coming in, a payment going out, ...) Finally, there is a centralized database of failed payments. It works well,…

> some kind of centralized credit history

> there is a centralized database of failed payments

exactly what I assumed, and pretty much the same as how the US credit-check system works.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(copied from a sibling comment) There is the "trust" component first: in your request, you list all your credits and the fact that you have failed a payment. Then you provide the bank with your last three bank statements and your salary. They match the money movements with what they expect to see (a salary coming in, a payment going out, ...) Finally, there is a centralized database of failed payments. It works well,…

> some kind of centralized credit history > there is a centralized database of failed payments exactly what I assumed, and pretty much the same as how the US credit-check system works.

The difference is that we do not have a score and that there is an implicit trust in your declarations. These declarations are somehow checked for major inconsistencies but that's all.

There is no history of credit and the note in the centralized database is removed when you actually pay (this is then rather a "database of people who are currently late in their payments")

The other thing is that we do not have the problem of "I know your SS# so I can take a credit" - it requires all kinds of bureaucratic gymnastics.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some kind of centralized credit history > there is a centralized database of failed payments exactly what I assumed, and pretty much the same as how the US credit-check system works.

The difference is that we do not have a score and that there is an implicit trust in your declarations. These declarations are somehow checked for major inconsistencies but that's all. There is no history of credit and the note in the centralized database is removed when you actually pay (this is then rather a "database of people who are currently late in their payments") The other thing is that we do not have the pr…

> we do not have a score

of course you have a score, it's just implied rather than explicit. how many missed payments? how much were those missed payments? that's the score.

> an implicit trust in your declarations

...but we still look you up in the central database ;-) sure, we trust you

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