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We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

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Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#391
post #98
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“What incredible inconvenience are we trying to solve?” 40,000 deaths in the United States every year. Hundreds of thousands of costly accidents We can’t get great transportation even in the New York City area. We have 0 miles of high-speed rail, while China built 25,000 it’s great that you want to start building some mass transit, but it’ll take a century if we start now. Let’s start by having trains take you to the…

There are over 30 US cities with trains to the airport. Another half dozen on the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airport_rail_link_syst... US also has almost 350 miles of high speed rail, not 0. The Northeast is where it’s all concentrated with Acela being the fastest. If you live in a major city in the States it’s often way easier and faster to take rail. In Seattle for instance you can beat a driver to…

>US also has almost 350 miles of high speed rail, not 0. The Northeast is where it’s all concentrated with Acela being the fastest.

Acela is not "high speed rail". Maybe to Americans it is, but it really isn't. Let me know when the US can make a real high-speed rail where the train company actually owns and operates the track and can actually maintain a high speed, instead of just going fast on one short little stretch and then calling it "high speed".

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#392
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to take a bite out of road deaths legislate a vehicle/phone interlink that disables everything but basic phone functions on smartphones while in the confines of a vehicle, then legislate center console infotainment displays out of existence. Miss me with the bullshit "AI drivers will usher in a new era of road safety", you can trap an AV with a fucking ring of salt on the road if you're clever about how it's…

Would that or mandatory breathalyser to start the car do more?

I don't know, how about we do both?

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#393
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry can you be more specific? Humans have lived on and off in community structures throughout history, we evolved as social creatures in these structures. We're proximally further away from these structures in the present time, which has brought up the issues I mentioned. Among other things, a means of allowing proximity to be less of a factor allows us to explore different sized dwellings due to a greater area of…

You talk about creating communities out of preferences, which makes them communities of interest, not traditional communities of kinship and enforced proximity. The Tyranny of Structurelessness is directly relevant to communities of interest. Hippy communes. Co-housing projects. Cults both secular and religious. Idealistic people who don't understand what is actually necessary. We've been here before, many times. Rea…

The main point of the Tyranny of Structurelessness is not to approach governance of groups of people with naiveté because power exists whether or not it is acknowledged.

The argument I am making is that there is benefit to having social units of >1 families be easier to form in modern society, and better transport helps that by relaxing space constraints. In fact, better transport allows us to explore the frontier of connection to close community and the connection to the amenities and cultural richness of modern living. It's an unlock of scale from what was possible before, which means it is at least partly uncharted territory.

I never said 'and these social units should ignore governance', or define exactly how these social units should operate or how close their ties should be. Obviously they should be mindful of power and define explicit ways to work together, and arguing that this is simply an interest vs kinship category thing is limiting to the point of not saying much. And of course it doesn't happen tomorrow; my argument is this is the way it happens and thus it's worth going down this tech tree.

One thing to consider is that scale has a profound impact on possibility, both in cultural normalization and discovering the appropriate models of governance for a given situation, which are much more likely to emerge when operating at a larger scale. So in turn we a) don't get enough examples to have replicable models emerge, and b) we only get groups that are pretty out there that want to do the thing, and these people tend not to be great models of generalizability because they're culturally far different from the norm. The examples you give are the extreme cultural outliers, not regular people. A weird hippie commune isn't for me, but a place where my four best friends and I can raise kids with some shared outdoor space and nannies and kitchen all within 20 mins of the city? Sign me up yesterday - that's resource pooling at its best, and a way to live more efficiently and sustainably as a species.

A recent analog is the increased sophistication of funding structures for early stage startups, from clunky & predatory term sheets to convertible notes and SAFEs. This happened as a result of the normalization and scale of the early stage ecosystem. Before then early startups were weird and only attracted the types that were ok pushing against the grain or were too rich to feel the pain. Now it's been around long enough and at enough scale to be normal enough to provide an easy on-ramp for good people and good ideas to make waves in the world, not just a place for the elite and the weirdos.

Zach Klein's thread here is a good read on the on-the-ground constraints of proximity and amenities for larger social units: https://twitter.com/zachklein/status/1422293114480250880

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#394
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think smaller. Trains are enormous, costly, and extremely inflexible to changes in demand. Have you ever seen a train car small enough to only carry a single person? The existence of 4000lb cars and 200000lb trains is because we lacked the ability to quickly and safely move only the necessary atoms from A to B, so we had to bundle them up with a ton of other atoms until it became practical to implement. We can free o…

Eh, this is a silly take. Almost all trips are going to a few destinations. Work, Home, Shopping, Schools, etc. A sanely designed city would just build transit to those places. Self-driving cars are solving an unnecessary problem, if that makes sense. US made some truly terrible design decisions, and self-driving is sort-of doubling down on the disaster.

Where I think we agree is that cars mostly suck for cities, and cars that get self-driving tech tacked onto them doesn't solve most of the fundamental issues with cars as we know them today.

I think the question here is what is a practical roadmap to building better cities with the ones we've got?

An extreme distillation of my pov is: roads&rubber wheels > rails&metal wheels.

I believe roads&rubber are just far better for A-B transport by so many measures, but most importantly that it is an extremely flexible connective tissue because it can be incrementally and cheaply added to or changed.

We can make the big, slow, expensive changes to add rail, and that may (mostly) work (for some), but it is extremely unlikely to happen at scale because it essentially means upending how car-centric cities are designed using top-down process or fiat.

Meanwhile cities are living breathing things pulled in many directions by many forces. The question is whether those forces can be harnessed to bring cities toward what we want them to be. I think roads&rubber do that better, because they allow bottom-up, rapid incremental change that shares costs with citizens (by way of vehicles) and does not require anywhere near the level of commitment or consensus that rail does.

I think it's reasonable to assume that if self-driving tech starts showing up in 10 years, that in 30 years we'll begin to see several changes that push us towards our goals for cities:

* There will be cities that require only self-driving cars in city limits, which will begin the alteration of the rules of traffic flow, since rules can be reprogrammed instantly

* product (car ownership) will give way to utility as all tech does over time

* There will be roads that will be converted to mixed use (parklets, mini-parks, bike lanes, walking) and be limited to only smaller micromobility-like vehicles. An early version of this is SF's 'slow cities' streets in each neighborhood that have been cut off to (most) cars.

* Max size requirements & road size changes will start to be palatable, with roads being recaptured, property lines & zoning shifting, etc.

* longer commutes/travel would use (larger) vehicle types that specialize in long distance comfort whereas short commutes would use (smaller) vehicles that have higher throughput in high density areas.

And more. This is the kind of payoff we'd start getting by investing in self-driving tech today. And these are things that can be done in a lazy and politically simple way, making changes only as they make sense in the moment, not on long planning schedules and anticipations of ridership and population proximity in 25 years.

I doubt that in the same ~30 year span that you could get most cities to install more than a few light rail corridors, and they'd probably not have sufficient throughput and frequent enough stops. We'd have to get like 5-10x better/faster at big infrastructure projects including politically challenging things like eminent domain to get comparable results.

LA metro is a good example: remember the metro construction scene at the end of the movie Speed? That was 30 years ago, and in that time metro has eased maybe ~5% of total traffic and you still absolutely need a car to get around LA. How do we get the other 95%?

The ideal answer in my mind is neither cars nor rail, but a system that operates a lot like rail but flexibly sized and individualized, and using the basic roads&rubber approach of cars.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#395

“We’ve decided to do shutdown after we were ordered to because our product killed some people”

no one was killed in that incident

There were multiple incidents and people were killed
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