Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off • Hacker News Board

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#391

Post by uuddlrlrbaba » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #261

Fischgericht wrote: post #254

In any case anyone wants to read about a EU perspective: Over here in Germany the "trick" of doing an asset deal to get rid of employees (and any benefits they may have earned over time) is very risky, and can fire back massively. It's not a black-and-white thing, but the labor courts have check-lists: - Are people at the new company work on the same tasks as they did in the old one? - Are people at the new company s…

Super informative. I must reveal my bias toward a free market here, but I also remember keenly what it was like to be a powerless employee. Germany appears to have by far the strongest economy in the EU but with higher unemployment than the USA. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the balance there vs the USA? I can imagine compelling arguments for each approach.

I'm not sure if this is factored into your unemployment numbers, but in the USA its very common for all adults to need to work in order to make ends meet.

Whereas in a stronger economy with employment laws protecting employees it'd be much more possible for a family to live comfortably off a single income, making for a lot more "unemployed" adults.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

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Post by JohnFen » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #366

JohnFen wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because union representation isn't just about pay?

Those ultimately convert to pay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensating_differential#Empl...

Some of the most important things unions negotiate for aren't about pay and benefits. They negotiate things like working conditions, handle disputes, and the like.

Those things are usually much more important than pay and benefits, and when union negotiations stall, it's more usually about that sort of thing than about money.

I hate to bring up the old example, but it's used because it nicely illustrates the value of unions for everybody -- not just the union members. Things like having a 40 hour workweek and weekends only happened because of unions.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

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Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:29 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #364

s1artibartfast wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, unions make it impossible to fire bad teachers Only a handful of teachers have been fired in the last 20 years in California

That means the teacher unions, public schools, and/or lawmakers in CA kind of suck. (I lived there but I never had kids there, so I don't have any deep knowledge on the matter, except that #3 is really obviously true) It doesn't mean teachers are "one of the most powerful political forces" in the United States. It's like a tangent within a tangent so I guess there's not much more I'd say about that claim, other than.…

>Certainly the awesome political power they wield hasn't helped to increase salaries (compare them to any other credentialed profession requiring a college degree), or prevent charter schools from eating away at public school funding, or to restore some of the pension benefits that were taken away in the eighties.

I cant speak for the nation at large, but this doesnt track with my experience in california.

Public school funding has massively increased. It has gone from somewhere around 9K/student in 2012 to $24k/student in 2023. With an average class size of 29, that is $700k per class per year.[1] They are rightly scared of charter schools and private school vouchers.

California teaching is a decent profession on average, but compensation is extremely seniority based, with senior teachers payed 2X new hires, while doing essentially the same job (~$50k vs $100k) .[2] this is an internal struggle that most US unions have. Based on US union law, there is one union while in Europe employees can shop between multiple. As a result, US unions suffer from a tyranny of the majority which will sacrifice minority member interests for that of the majority.

I have a friend in a public utility union where the union fought against WFH for IT workers, simply because the field workers were jealous.

https://edsource.org/2023/california-leaders-should-focus-on...

https://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/fr/sa/cefavgsalaries.asp

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#394

Post by gosub100 » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #205

mhandley wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understood correctly, they are claiming that Epic effectively laid off everyone and sold some of the assets to SongTradr. SongTradr then made offers to half the previous employees. As these people were not previously SongTradr employees, SongTradr hasn't laid off anyone because of their union activities - they didn't employ them in the first place. At least I expect that's their argument. Seems like the way the…

Firing everybody and only re-hiring the meek employees is a classic union-busting tactic and plainly unlawful.

Maybe lesson for next time: have some "sleeper cells" in the company that are not part of the union who can slow down development, create bugs, and waste time, accidentally check in AWS creds, etc.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#395

Post by sickcodebruh » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC

g-b-r wrote: post #342

sickcodebruh wrote: post #209

For some context, it’s important to understand the degree to which Bandcamp’s success and ubiquity with independent music is built on a people-first, anti-corporate culture. Bandcamp is an obsession for a very large and engaged segment of the independent music world. A good friend, a professional musician, told me “I feel like I’m watching my childhood home burn to the ground.” This is far from a unique sentiment. Pe…

If you succeed in making it a Bandcamp alternative please make the tos and privacy terms extremely brief and transparent, for me (and I imagine many other privacy-minded people) that's one of the most important factors in deciding to try and trust a service these days

This is important to me. It should matter to everyone, especially in the independent music/arts where value so easily gets leeched out by people with resources.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

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Post by BonoboIO » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC

erinnh wrote: post #356

kjkjadksj wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are unemployment benefits better in germany? If they are you’d expect it to be higher than the US, as in the US workers might run out of the social support network sooner and be forced to take any job just to eat and shelter.

They are. What I was taught in macroeconomics in this topic (excuse me if I get something wrong, it’s been a few years) In general it’s very expected unemployment to „generally“ be higher in Germany. Because it’s harder to fire people here, people also get hired somewhat slower. However in the flip side it’s also expected that during harsh economic times people will be fired less because of how „hard“ it is to hire p…

Also there programs like „Kurzarbeit“ rough translation would be „Shortened Work“.

Where you get 60%-85% of your salary (after tax) without work or with way less ours, if the employer has no work/less work (like covid period). It’s payed mostly by the state. Up to 12 month. Regulations are strict.

Prevents layoffs and helps starting the upturn of production like automobile industry, where it takes months or half a year to start ramping up production.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

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Post by saltminer » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:32 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #273

throwboatyface wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just saying "union bad" in more words. The recent WGA strike and Teamsters strike at UPS both got terrific results for workers. The UAW and SAG-AFTRA are also very effectively striking right now.

> This is just saying "union bad" in more words. That's not "just" what is being said. Unions are generally good in the US, but the tactics have aligned across industries. Notably, the teacher's unions, police unions, and often utility unions are horribly corrupt.

I believe the union-busting tactics of the 20th century are a big reason for the corruption of many unions: the ones that could stand up best to union busting were the ones management and politicians were physically afraid of meaningfully challenging.

That said, I live in North Carolina, where public sector unions are illegal (no state, county, or local agency is allowed to engage in collective bargaining with its employees). Sure, there are things like the NCAE, but in practice they're all completely powerless - aside from creating proposals which the NCGOP will subsequently ignore in favor of diverting more public funds to under-performing for-profit charter schools under the guise of "school choice," the only thing the NCAE really provides to teachers are benefits that the state doesn't. To quote a comment I wrote last January (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29885392):

> There's also another factor at play: in many states, the power of unions is quite weak. E.g. public-sector employees in NC cannot collectively bargain, which is why they're able to get away with paying teachers horrendous wages. Want to strike? Go on ahead, pay your sub for the day (or your contract will not be renewed) and go down to Raleigh, where the legislature will recess and most of them will literally just go home and ignore all the people with picket signs.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

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Post by ivalm » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:33 PM UTC

sgerenser wrote: post #160

ivalm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US median income, even disposable income after all the medical/housing costs, is higher than all of the large EU countries (France, Germany, etc). So if anyone has bullshit pay, it’s the Europeans.

This is certainly the case for tech workers that dominate this site. I’m not sure if it’s certain of the median US worker.

It is true for median worker (not tech): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per...

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

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Post by ivalm » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

MediumOwl wrote: post #109

ivalm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US median income, even disposable income after all the medical/housing costs, is higher than all of the large EU countries (France, Germany, etc). So if anyone has bullshit pay, it’s the Europeans.

Citation needed

Citation provided: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per...

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#400

Post by gosub100 » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

chefandy wrote: post #377

filoleg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a direct admission that unions are for protecting low-performers? Because if yes, that’s not a good look for them at all and is kind of a perfect ammo for the anti-union side.

Admission? Like the commenter is some kind of representative? And while unions aren't homogenous, they generally don't protect incompetence. I've known people in unions that got fired for poor performance, generally. But if I was a cook and cut off a finger while making some company profitable, my performance would certainly suffer while it was healing, and lots of companies world very much rather stop paying me. So…

I've known people who managed union employees. While being walked out (fired) for bad performance, they learned the magic words "I have a drug problem". Automatically reverses firing, employee goes to some (company paid rehab) for 1-3 months, gets their job back. They just use this as an option to keep their job, they dont even care. Every "compassionate" benefit you offer will be equally exploited by losers. It seems to me a zero-sum game.