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Why scalpers can get tickets

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Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#391

Post by Nursie »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #380
Nursie wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every action. Some festivals avoid it by requiring ID to be linked to the ticket and banning resale (though they may allow refund). It’s funny, but “extracting maximum profit” isn’t the only motivation some people have in life. Especially when it comes to cultural events.

> It’s funny, but “extracting maximum profit” isn’t the only motivation some people have in life. [citation needed] More seriously though, it's true that people - arguably most people - have other motivations than purely materialistic ones. But, like every market, cultural events are a dynamic system . It follows a trajectory over time. Slightly more greedy people have better outcomes than slightly less greedy ones.…

> Slightly more greedy people have better outcomes than slightly less greedy ones. The least successful get filtered out. Iterate that over time. What results do you expect?

Define "better outcomes" and "Least successful".

The most coveted and arguable most successful music festival in the UK, Glastonbury, operates in the way I described. A variety of other festivals in the UK do too, often due to the politics of the organisers (see, for example, Beautiful Days)

> Do you see such factors at play in entertainment event industry?

Yep, where people make it happen I see them at play and working well to create systems that both the organisers and the public want, and which lock out the third-party profiteers. It would be nice to see such things become more widespread. Though I agree we are less likely to see that where 'the industry' is in control, rather than artists or passionate individuals.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#392

Post by fragmede »

dazc wrote: post #348
patrickscoleman wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also actual fans sometimes can’t make a show and need to resell their tickets

But people buy stuff everyday that they never actually use. Why should tickets be sacred?

Because artists don't want to play to an empty room. Even for a lot of money.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#393

Post by bernawil »

lolinder wrote: post #318
jallen_dot_dev wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a reseller buys the ticket, and then sells it again to the end user, Ticketmaster gets paid twice. So basically scalpers are being paid to be the scapegoat so Ticketmaster can make more money, at the expense of artists and fans.

And in turn Ticketmaster is the scapegoat that shields the artists from blame. The primary service that Ticketmaster provides is to protect the artist's reputation while ensuring as much money as possible gets made per event.

This take is widespread and it's just wrong. Most artists are hired by organizers and just paid a flat fee for performing, the company then selling and promoting the event. Can you imagine what it'd take to organize an international tour otherwise? Some huge names may also run their own operation (Pearl Jam where notorious for this) but still just some of the time, they'll still do some shows in festivals or different countries where they are just hired to perform and not selli ng tickets themselves.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#395

Post by bernawil »

jallen_dot_dev wrote: post #271
iambateman wrote: post #215

I think there’s a massive point which gets missed on this question… A lot of these tickets get resold on the platforms themselves. If a reseller buys the ticket, and then sells it again to the end user, Ticketmaster gets paid twice. This point results in at least hundreds of millions in revenue. Now, if one of the platforms “cracks down” and makes it harder to buy and sell people will prefer another platform. So plat…

> If a reseller buys the ticket, and then sells it again to the end user, Ticketmaster gets paid twice. So basically scalpers are being paid to be the scapegoat so Ticketmaster can make more money, at the expense of artists and fans.

Anybody ever floated the idea that it's all tax evasion?

Company sells ticket officially at 50, black market clears at 150 off the books.

Were I'm from it's the most popular take. Doesn't have to be done by the company itself, could be just some insiders doing it for their sole profit.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#396

Post by rs999gti »

patrickscoleman wrote: post #247
rs999gti wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple fix then, ban reselling. The artist and TM still get the revenue, but the scalper gets inventory they can't move. What about the fans? Similar to airlines, let people buy standby tickets, at the event, check attendance, if there is space let the stand bys in. TM still gets paid twice, scalper has garbage, and fans get in. What about fans who can't go? Buy the insurance at checkout, if you can't go the insuranc…

Also actual fans sometimes can’t make a show and need to resell their tickets

Insurance or refund only to buyer fixes this.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#397

Post by rs999gti »

fragmede wrote: post #392
dazc wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people buy stuff everyday that they never actually use. Why should tickets be sacred?

Because artists don't want to play to an empty room. Even for a lot of money.

Standby tickets at the venue fixes this. Similar to airplane tickets, which can be oversold, standby tickets accommodate those who really need to use a ticketed service.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#398

Post by rs999gti »

dotancohen wrote: post #375
Analemma_ wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tied tickets to names and required ID at the venue (allowing refunds in case you couldn't make it), this wouldn't work and scalping would basically end overnight. The fact that neither Ticketmaster nor the performers nor the venues has ever taken this simple step is the proof that it's not in their interest to do so. Note that events where the promoters are actually interested in having people show up instead…

> If you tied tickets to names and required ID at the venue Solution sounds worse than the original problem. What happens if I want to gift somebody a ticket? What happens if I don't want my name associated in a database for going to a gay artist's show? What happens if my wife is sick on show day so I invite my neighbor instead at the last minute?

Airlines allow gifting credits for flights, do the same for tickets.

Gifter only gets refunds in credits not tickets.

Then on acceptance, the receiver has the credit and only gets refund to them.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#399

Post by bscphil »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #374
mattmaroon wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not how concerts work, and artists and producers don't get any money from Ticketmaster fees. In most cases, a promoter pays an artist a flat fee to perform. The promoter then markets the show and gets the ticket sales, and Ticketmaster gets Ticketmaster fees. Unfortunately Ticketmaster is owned by LiveNation, and they are far and away the biggest promoter. They sign exclusive rights with large venues. My loca…

> Unfortunately Ticketmaster is owned by LiveNation, and they are far and away the biggest promoter. They sign exclusive rights with large venues. My local 25,000 seat amphitheater has a deal with LiveNation. I can only get tickets to shows there through Ticketmaster. So mostly what GP said. This is not an accident, and everyone is in on it.

I don't think it's the same at all - the crucial point of difference is whether artists deserve to get blamed for this situation. Various people in the thread have claimed that they do, that they're receiving kickbacks from scalping or a portion of Ticketmaster fees on resales, but your parent comment claims that this is not the case and misrepresents the ticket sale structure.

I think that's a critical difference, because if the current situation is actually a big reputation laundering scam by artists, there's not much we can do about it without regulation. If it's not, if in fact most artists are as unhappy about the situation as their fans, there's quite a lot they can do about it and should be encouraged to do so even if it makes getting a ticket significantly harder (e.g. showing ID for purchased tickets at the venue and only allowing 1:1 refunds, not resales of tickets).

Of course, if producers are receiving a significant portion of earnings on resales, some of that does "trickle down" to artists in the form of higher performing fees on the basis of anticipated resales. But that's a small fraction of added value for most artists, and it's coming at a level of indirection that means ticket sellers are incentivized to raise fees to their highest possible levels after artists get paid, because that's pure profit for them. I think it's entirely reasonable to believe that artists aren't happy about this payment structure, even if they do see slightly higher show income as a result, and want a range of fans to be able to attend their shows.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#400

Post by vintermann »

iambateman wrote: post #215

I think there’s a massive point which gets missed on this question… A lot of these tickets get resold on the platforms themselves. If a reseller buys the ticket, and then sells it again to the end user, Ticketmaster gets paid twice. This point results in at least hundreds of millions in revenue. Now, if one of the platforms “cracks down” and makes it harder to buy and sell people will prefer another platform. So plat…

> If a reseller buys the ticket, and then sells it again to the end user, Ticketmaster gets paid twice.

Definitively not if it happens like this article describes, with what the scalper selling being a ticketmaster account.

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