Live data from Hacker News

Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

statecraft.beehiiv.com

391–400 of 771 posts

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#391

It is free money for lenders because backed by the Govt AND protected against bankruptcy. It is Free money for colleges because they know they will get paid regardless. Remove this "free money guarantee" and watch how market corrects itself. When students can file for bankruptcy and/or the debt is not guaranteed by Govt, lenders would now use the same criteria they use to issue credit cards to 18 year olds. Hint: It'…

> When students can file for bankruptcy

Agree with everything you say, except for this.

Allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy will result in millions of students pulling that lever as soon as they graduate. They, of course, get to keep their degrees and use them to make money their entire lives.

If you file for bankruptcy and, for example, want to keep your car (which has a loan), you have to reaffirm that debt and continue paying. Same with your home, etc.

Student loans provide you with a valuable life-long asset. Allowing discharge simply isn't right and is economically destructive. How about I BK, discharge my mortgage and keep my house forever? Same thing.

I agree 100%, government has to get the hell out of the student loan business. Universities and students need to be forced into a situation where risk is assessed and loans are issued --or not-- accordingly. The university has to have risk. And students have to be held to their commitments.

The other problem the current system causes is what I call "course padding". Most degrees in the US have a year (or slightly more) of coursework unrelated to the field of study. In the case of STEM degrees, students spend a year or more on non-STEM courses.

This is detrimental on many fronts.

First, the time to graduation rate for undergrad is 33% longer than it would be without this irrelevant coursework. No employer cares about this stuff for STEM degrees. Some might differ wit this. OK. Let the free market decide then. If Google wants engineers who have taken three semesters of Underwater Basket Weaving History, the free market will drive students to take those courses as enhancements to the required curriculum. They should NOT be conditions for graduation at all.

This would reduce a typical engineering degree from four years to three.

Second, these non-major courses add 33% to the cost of a typical STEM degree. Whatever a year costs at a school (including housing, etc.), that's what they add to the student loan. That could mean $30K to $70K. This is horrific, unnecessary and counterproductive. If the student wants to take these courses because they add value and become additive to their career, they can make that decision --not be forced by government into it.

If government wasn't in this business, bullshit degrees and bullshit unnecessary courses would cost a ton less and some would completely evaporate from our universities. A few weeks ago I was watching a show where this guy helps people deal with debt. This poor fellow had over $250K in student debt for a degree that might not even make him $50K a year. The only way that happens is in a distorted market, one that is distorted by government in favor of what usually ends-up being political agendas disguised as good intentions.

The other element of this equation is our failures in K-12 education. Again, government (and union) meddling has caused much of this.

Our 18 year old's graduate high school devoid of marketable skills. They are useless to most businesses without training and, generalizing, are ignorant about most things that matter as they transition into adulthood.

For example, they have no understanding of money and finances and no skills to help them make sound decisions. So, someone throws a $200K loan at them for a degree on Basket Weaving and they take the ride, not understanding they are going to make just above minimum wage and have signed-on to financial hell for the rest of their lives.

That is a failure in pre-college education. And a serious one at that.

Not everyone has to go to college. Our K-12 path fails that population as well. The average US high school graduate requires training to stack boxes on shelves and make coffee. That sure sounds like a formula for societal success, doesn't it?

At the end of the day, the problem might very well be that education, in the US, has become a political punching bag. One could come-up with dozens of scenarios to understand why we seem to insist on destroying our nation by not doing a good job educating our kids. All of them would seem insane to even suggest. And yet, here we are, it's 2023 and our kids rank below third-world-nation levels almost across the board.

This is insane. What are we doing?

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably you have enough money now to switch to something that makes you happy? Personally, if you’re going to be miserable anyway (as most Americans are these days), it’s probably better to be miserable with money than without money, lol

I'm 29 and have 500k saved up (live in Santa Monica which is quite expensive), but yes I think I will quit my next stock vest which is Friday. And idk. My best friend from high school moved out here with me and he's a waiter making 40k a year and seems totally happy. Works like 30 hours a week, no mental stress, able to work out and work on himself. I think money is highly overrated.

[deleted]

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#393

Surprised that nobody here mentioned community colleges yet. Not a silver bullet, but the total cost of someone commuting to a community college from home is an order of magnitude cheaper than going to college. In many cases, CCs have explicit transfer programs, and the chances of transferring to a decent university after year two are pretty high.

Or even just in state colleges. I went to a large public school. It was a great school, but so are the big public flagships found at any state. I knew a lot of people who were out of state, taking loans, to do things like business or premed they could literally do wherever they came from for over half off tuition before you even account for financial aid or scholarships. CCs really aren't that much cheaper than in st…

Tuition at my states flagship, UIUC, is now 20k a year. Combine book costs and other misc and youre looking at 100k of debt before even accounting for room and board.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only governments could make…laws to restrict the price of University. Or…could limit the maximum loan size thus encouraging Universities to not charge more than that.

Price controls are one of the few things that economists on both sides of the political aisle agree do not work, and/or have unintended consequences which are worse than the problem they attempt to resolve. https://www.econlib.org/the-consensus-on-price-controls/

That's not quite true. See for example the existence of the billions of $ of corporate agricultural subsidies, essentially creating an artificial price floor.

The primary reason price ceilings are criticized by "both sides" is because the shifting Overton window has resulted in both the Republican and Democratic parties having quite neoliberal views. In an international context the two sides of the aisle can be described as "right" and "far-right".

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#395
Tuition and fees in California's CSU system are still only about $8k per year. The CSU system provides a very good education, in some ways better than the more prestigious UC system because there tends to be more opportunities for direct contact with instructors. In the sciences, there are often more research opportunities and spaces for undergraduate students in labs. It's a real bargain, and you can save even more money by doing your first two years at a community college.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#396
I think another reason for the increase is that it's one of the few industries where they can charge as much as possible. The price is basically determined by:

Student: How much does it cost to attend your school?

University: How much do you have?

The base cost is some ridiculously high value and can be brought down with grants/scholarships/loans, which are needs based.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it say that? Btw private school looks quite affordable. I used to think my neighbor was rich, they were, but for only $20k/yr you can send 2 kids to private school? That is cheaper than daycare.

There is a chart at the bottom. Costs doubled over twenty years since 1999, directly comparable to the college rate over the same period and well above inflation.

According to that chart, by "well above inflation" you mean "100% above inflation".

Your use of generalizations seems radically inconsistent.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#398

I am beginning to believe that the root cause of tuition costs in the US exceeding inflation is based much more on FOMO on the benefits of college education rather than federal government guarantees on student loans. My claim is that buyers (parents+children) of college degrees are maybe not behaving rationally with respect to cost. High-cost schools position themselves as offering a "better" outcome or opportunity t…

The advantage of the larger school in my experience, is that its like going to a dozen small schools at once. Plenty of people I know where able to transfer from one good program to another in a completely opposite field once they learned what they actually liked (usually quite different than what you imagined as a highscooler especially if your parents have no concept of the field), because the school was large enou…

I think you and GP are using different definitions of "larger". One definition is "more programs". Another is merely "more students".

Generally, go for the one with the lower student:teacher ratio. My anecdote:

I and a friend both went to low ranked undergrad universities (state schools). Mine, however, had a low student:teacher ratio per class. Comparing notes with him, the main benefit was that professors actually cared about teaching. The number of students wasn't high enough to be a burden. They didn't repeat the same HW and exams every semester. The number of office hours per week per professor was 3-9 hours. They could be that generous because there simply weren't enough students to use up those hours.

We also didn't have TAs teaching any course.

(Also went to a top ranked university for grad school - very few professors cared about teaching).

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I read that Wall Street is creating CDO's based on these loans, like they (continue to) do on mortgages. Some people die "early" without paying back these loans, and sometimes, they will owe more than they took out. Given the mounting problems with the numbers here, it seems a whole generation of people in the middle of this bubble are going to go to the grave while still owing on these loans. What happens to the…

One of the core elements of the 2008 meltdown was when someone abandoned a house, all the other houses in the neighborhood would see a substantial drop in their value. This made it more likely that other people would go underwater on their mortgage and also walk away. Education doesn’t have this kind of contagion. If you stop paying your student loans it has very little impact on the value on my education.

It doesn't need to be contagious to create a crisis, just correlated, e.g. if there is a big macroeconomic shock that makes many students unable to pay their loans all at once.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lenders that are taking on too much risk The lenders are taking no risks since these loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy. There are also very large late fees and penalties that can triple (or more) the amount owed.

In other words, the government gave the leaders license to do "predatory".

Comically, the government is the direct lender and is charging “predatory” rates. My loans are all through DEd. At time of issuance, they were double the 30 year mortgage and many multiples of prime. My payments go directly to the governments payment processor (AidVantage/Navient) and on to DEd.
Post reply on HN