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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#391

Post by tenebrisalietum »

Two things:

A. In the US - driving sucks.

Populated areas: It's gotten much more crowded on every road in the past 20 years. At least where I live rush hour is a joke - there's a crash every day on the interstate, meaning traffic doesn't get above 30mph the whole time I'm on the interstate. Local roads are also full of cars during these times and during most times. It's not fun, and it's not freedom, it's an annoying necessity to live.

Non-populated areas: Far less crowded, but to get anywhere, you're looking at long drives on twisty, winding roads. It might be fun at first, but then gets old. It's not freedom, it's an annoying necessity to live.

B. I think cars used to be a rite of passage for young people, and often the first way they would get "out of the house" and have a way to get privacy for their earliest girlfriends/boyfriends. This is something that started to die in the late 80's. Today's young people are much poorer, much more worried, pissed, and disappointed in everything, much more isolated, and under much more restrictive settings in things they do such as school and such.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#392

Post by dilap »

leguy wrote: post #375
taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

> It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. Or maybe a reflection of higher expectations? Housing, healthcare, and vehicles are all examples of things that both cost more and are much more advanced than the same version previous generations had. Also young people are living in cities more than previous generations and those cities are denser. The value prop of a car, price aside is less…

Cars and healthcare are debatable, but with housing you're literally buying the same houses as the previous generation, just way more expensive.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4518-Rosedale-Ave-Austin-...

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1339-46th-Ave-San-Francis...

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/677-Harmony-Ln-Ashland-OR...

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#393

Post by PartiallyTyped »

luckylion wrote: post #353
PartiallyTyped wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, most people are lurkers. That doesn't mean that lurkers can't show their presence with interactions in the form of up or downvotes or that the different subreddits, hashtags, and so on aren't a mirror of the user base. Now, I understand your cynicism, but you'd be naive to believe that small pockets of change are not happening. But then again, what does a European know about European cities? Anyhow, I found this…

Berlin is super progressive. You absolutely don't need a car in Berlin. Berlin certainly has the highest percentage of people (in Germany) aggressively telling everyone that you shouldn't want a car. Around 30% of households in Berlin do not own a car. The "I like bikes and I bike everywhere" group is a small minority. I know, I'm one of them. As soon as it's even slightly rainy mine is the only bike in front of the…

I lived in Copenhagen, 2/3 of the population walked or commuted via public transit to work. This obviously isn’t the same as owning a car but I don’t have stats for that off the top of my head.

I walked everywhere, but I saw people riding their bikes in the rain, in the snow, and all kinds of weather in between.

Now, I am not expressing that everyone shouldn’t own a car nor that people outside cities shouldn’t.

I am expressing that __young__ people seem to not want to own a car, with young people being predominantly in cities. Wanting to own, and having to own are two different things as well.

My claim appears to be incongruous to what other commenters seem to have assumed I meant.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#394

Post by Steltek »

UncleEntity wrote: post #326
Steltek wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be silly. The elderly parent with bad reflexes and even worse eyesight will drive themselves to the doctor in their equally decrepit car. That's what really happens when you reinforce the belief that cars are a necessity because bikes are some extreme hardship.

You’re joking but I once took an elderly man from the front entrance of his building to the parking lot in my cab because he couldn’t walk that far with his walker (which wasn’t all that far from the back door) and had to help him get behind the wheel to drive off. Needless to say I waited a bit for him to clear the neighborhood before driving off.

Oh I'm very much NOT joking! I was stopped at a red light on my bike when I was rear ended by an 83yo. He couldn't judge how far his car was from my bike. He was super angry that I insisted he had to stick around to exchange information because he was going to be late for a doctor's appointment in Brookline. Thankfully it was low speed (he was stopping, he just didn't know where to stop) so all he did was knock me forwards.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#395

Post by mcv »

GiorgioG wrote: post #362
mcv wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, a big problem in North America is that there is almost no new mid-density building. Most is low density, and where anything denser is allowed, it's immediately all skyscrapers. The few surviving mid-density neighbourhoods, especially when walkable, are often extremely popular and expensive, but very rare, and no new ones are being built because the zoning rules don't allow them. These are choi…

Folks that can afford to live in a single home tend do to so outside of cities. When people/governments propose medium/high density developments, there's a huge pushback because the perception is that lower income people will live in those developments and "cause problems". I'm not saying I buy it, but I do think that's part of the problem with increasing density in single-family home areas.

They could leave the existing developments as they are, but use mid-density buildings in new developments.

A big problem is also unfamiliarity. People aren't used to it anymore.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#396

Post by sokoloff »

Dudeman112 wrote: post #311
sokoloff wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (cars used to be a lot cheaper, both to buy and to maintain. Incomes for most used to be much higher) Cars have inflated at a rate significantly lower than general inflation (typically by about half as much), meaning they've gotten cheaper in real terms. They've also gotten much safer, more fuel efficient, reliable, lower-maintenance, and long-lived. https://www.in2013dollars.com/New-cars/price-inflation/1980-...

Wages have gone up with inflation where you live?

Yes. I live in the US, where real incomes have generally risen:

Median: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

Lowest quintile: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXU900000LB0102M (before taxes) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUINCAFTTXLB0102M (after taxes [which is what is spendable])

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#397

Post by kamaal »

rexpress wrote: post #154
fleddr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

>First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country...On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is. The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. Life may be good for Dut…

>>Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is.

Your parent comment is saying the same thing. Stay inside the city, close enough to your office that you can reach it by a bicycle. Of course in that case you could say the rent you would be pay would be equally higher. Plus not every one can afford to do that(given school availability, and your spouse office has to be close by too).

On a net basis, its again the same thing. You just pay for your time with higher rents.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#398

Post by kspacewalk2 »

dkarl wrote: post #322
taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

My wife and I have friends who can't get their children to learn to drive despite cars being available to them with gas and maintenance paid by their parents.

Why do they want their children to learn to drive?

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#399

Post by ghaff »

hunter2_ wrote: post #365
brmgb wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow. That seems such a sad and limiting way to live your life. Mostly true in my experience. I used to get away a lot more when I had a car and could just decide to hit the road whenever I wanted than I do now that I either have to rent or plan earlier and buy train tickets. It's purely friction linked by the way. I could still do all the things I did and it would actually cost me less money in the end. I just don'…

Friction for sure. In most cases (other than trying to find parking where that's difficult) having a car means most of the friction (cost, maintenance) is decoupled from each ride. With other options like train, Uber, etc. most of the friction (cost, waiting, planning) is coupled to each ride. We tend to take more rides in the decoupled model, I'd think.

I know a couple in SF who don't own a car and still seem pretty mobile between bike, walking, Uber, Zipcar, rentals, etc. But it takes a certain mental accounting disciple to go "I'm OK with spending $50 in transportation to meet a friend for dinner--and maybe a bit longer--because I'm still coming out ahead on an annual basis."

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#400

Post by taylodl »

sokoloff wrote: post #372
taylodl wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That helps a little, but still makes care ownership prohibitively expensive for young people. You're still looking at $350 per month for a 5 year old or newer vehicle, i.e. one that's reliable and has lower maintenance (and aggravation) costs. That still leaves you paying a little over $600 per month. From that point as you start lowering your finance costs you're going to increase your maintenance and aggravation co…

There are plenty of reliable 15-year old cars. (My wife drives a reliable 18-year old, 225K mile car. We took it on a 1600 mile roundtrip for the winter holidays this year with no particular fear that it wouldn't run like a top for the entire trip.) The idea that cars are only reliable for 5 years and 60K miles is, IMO and IME, quite out-dated. That was more true in the days of carburetors, points-based ignition, and…

I have a 15 year old, 20 year old, and 25 year old vehicle.

They're very reliable.

They're also not for sale.

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