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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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391–400 of 898 posts

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That if the govt hadn’t done something to intervene, I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to know any poc until I was an adult. Your greater comfort with the differently skin coloured members of your social class came at the expense of the people who would have gotten in under a colour blind system. That’s fine as long as people are ok with the fact that different groups are being held to different standards. (Asian…

The system in place at my university was color blind. The top 5% of students were automatically accepted.

> Asking bc I went to a good school that had affirmative action.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34678203

Which was it? Was your school colour blind or did they practice affirmative action? They can’t both be true at the same time.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had: - online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked…

I think you might want to reflect for a minute on why you thought "but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone?" was an appropriate response to a black person talking about their experience of racism. I recognize you believed yourself to be mitigating the effect of your statement by prefacing it with "Not disputing your bad experiences," but I think you'll find that the net effe…

Hmm... this sounds an awful lot like, "because you're responding to a comment made by a black person, the only acceptable response is one of total agreement". I think you might want to reflect for a minute on the importance of nuance in a discussion, and the net effect of trying to police comments on others' behalf.

I completely believe the commenter's experience, but I also witnessed the opposite a lot (and was deeply encouraged by it), and it's not wrong for me to chime in and point it out. And guess what? Experiencing vitriol on the internet directly contributed to me being more sensitive to things like racism. Although I've been on the receiving end of racist remarks offline, it wasn't until the internet that I caught a glimpse at how hurtful people could truly be. Again, not wrong for me to pipe up about it.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem you’re describing is extremely rare in tech. The industry is full of immigrants and people of color; I’ve personally never worked on a team with more than 30ish% white people, although I’ve interviewed for a few and I hear they’re more common in different specialties. But of course one of the key goals of diversity initiatives is to frame the discourse so people don’t think this way. How often do you hear…

Thanks for your response. I meant the question to be more broad than just tech.

It’s less egregious in other contexts and other industries, but I still haven’t ever seen e.g a college whiter than the state it’s located in. I’m sympathetic to affirmative action as a solution to break up a true monoculture, and I’m sure there’s some institution somewhere that would be 100.0% white if not for their valiant efforts to fight it. But I don’t see any indication this is a common problem.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#394

I wish we would transcend to a point where we look up to people based on their achievements and separate their race from it. I’m Asian btw. I can relate to Lebron just as much as I can relate to Neil Armstrong or Satya or Matz or Woz or Marie Curie because they are all excellent at what they did/do. I want to be excellent like them. Because we all are humans.

Lebron's struggles as a black man in America are a huge part of his success story. Not just that he's excellent at what he does. Pretending that race doesn't exist does not actually work in practice. LeBron himself will tell you that.

IMHO, LeBron's struggle was one of an poor kid growing up.

I would even say that being black was an advantage, and gave him great genetics that he took to the next level with discipline.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#395
post #14

Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.

DEI took off right after Occupy Wall Street. The whole purpose is to destroy the class discussion entirely and use DEI issues as a weapon against anyone who brings up class. That's why DEI feels so disingenuous, because at its core, that's exactly what it is.

Bingo, much like the political brinkmanship that is the current left and right divide it’s all a distraction from that moment of class clarity.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#396

For example, I know I'm talented - I've got the projects, certs, and experience to back it up. I think a lot of people who are relatively new to tech (less than 20 years experience) fail to realise that DEI measures were invented to tackle literal racism and misogeny in tech hiring. Companies would routinely screen out resumes from people whose names weren't white enough or who were a bit too feminine. You could have…

> Companies would routinely screen out resumes from people whose names weren't white enough or who were a bit too feminine Could you provide any details on this? I've been in tech for more than 20 years and never heard of anything like what you stated.

This still happens today. The easiest way for a computer programmer to see how is to consider the problem of building a non-racially biased hiring algorithm that takes resumes as input.

Heuristic one: Pick candidates with first names that are correlated with high performance. This works because certain areas have better math education, and first names help filter on parents’ incomes.

It is obviously racist. Eliminate it.

Heuristic 2: Look at educational experience. Public schools in the US are horribly racist/classist, so this doesn’t work either.

Heuristic 3: Look at work experience. Other employers used heuristic 1 and 2, so this inherits racism from them. Also, older hires are (hopefully) less diverse, assuming the field is improving.

Heuristic 4: Objective performance based whiteboard coding. People with imposter syndrome are more likely to choke in high-stress environments. Scratch this.

Heuristic 5: “Cultural fit” bonus points to fix up #4. Studies show this selects for things like drinking the same brand alcohol or enjoying the same sports. Strike it too.

Heuristic 6: Tailor the interview for the specific candidate. Studies show that women/minorities tend to get “softball” questions like “how did you handle this”, which accidentally puts them on the defensive. Men get alpha male planning questions “how will you grow this company”.

I personally prefer #3 graded on a scale from 1-4 with 0.5 increments. I add 0.5 to nervous people’s (women, or english as second language, mostly) scores and truncate the integer.

On average, this corrects the bias inherent in the interview setup and in my monkey brain. It pisses off almost everyone I know though.

If I controlled recruiters, I’d add women / minority quotas to the candidate stream, but not to the interview phase. I would also track job performance vs. ethnicity/gender, and loosen standards for any group that was outperforming the team.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's best for the company to scream it to the world. Or at least that's what the leaders think right now. After sitting in a room where we were told we needed to increase our “minority representation in upper management” (and I’m a mostly white manager). There were already 20% apparently, they wanted 40%. I asked my boss, “so what does that mean to me? To me it seems like you don’t want me” Boss: “oh no, you’re fin…

Unfortunately, I had an even worse experience. Boss: "You need to build a more diverse team." Me: "What are you talking about? I'm 1 of only 2 white people on the entire 12 person team." Boss: "Indians and Asians don't count as diverse." Me: "Really? I did not know that. I do have 2 Hispanics on the team though." Boss: "You're not hearing me. You don't have any black people and only have 2 women." It became clear tha…

> It became clear that "diversity" was not the goal, but rather something much more specific, likely because the metric the company was tracking specified it that way.

Indeed, it's not about "diversity" in the classic sense.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had: - online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked…

> Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) So the opportunity to make many different people feel excluded is better? I'm not sure what you're getting at?

So you're arguing equality is bad, therefore some people need to be more equal than others?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#399

> However, when I have to join a cheesy townhall once a month to discuss diversity hires, it makes me feel like I have no right to feel proud of any accomplishments I've made within the company. I feel the same way, kinda... I'm male, and not a PoC, so perhaps maybe my perspective is different? I'm told that I'm privileged, but that's not how I feel. I'm told due to systemic bias that I'm probably unaware of my privi…

> I'm male, and not a PoC, so perhaps maybe my perspective is different? > > I'm told that I'm privileged, but that's not how I feel.

Think of it this way:

As a male and not POC, you're starting at the starting line with no inherent disadvantages.

If you're a woman, you're farther behind on the starting line.

If you're a POC, you're farther behind on the starting line.

Privilege isn't supposed to make you feel -bad-. You didn't choose to be born male and white. It just happened to you. Your accomplishments are still your own, your life is still your own.

But it's ignorance (willful or otherwise) to deny the inherent advantages of being male and white, as compared to women, or POC, or people who are LGBTQ.

Put differently: if feeling bad about being privileged is the worst part of your experience where it comes to things like diversity, then you are a very privileged person.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>the right way to implement diversity is to get more underrepresented people into the funnel, not lowering the bar This is the best comment in the thread. If you have a diverse funnel you will have diverse employees and as long as you maintain standards, they will be well qualified for the job. This includes internships and job training programs.

Eh, the resume stack is fundamentally flawed. A lot of URT are never going to go into tech because they just don’t want to. It’s a large cultural issue.

Yes, that's why if a company is committed to diversity, it reaches out to candidates, promotes itself on events for underrepresented people etc.
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