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The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

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Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#391

Post by jessaustin »

matwood wrote: post #341
yamtaddle wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owned a half-dozen US houses built between 1907 and 2015 and have never actually seen such a thing. If you're lucky someone's done some work on a branch at some point and was courteous enough to install a shut-off, though usually off somewhere weird where there was already damage or whatever, not where you'd normally look for it. [EDIT] Actually, my parents' very-new house has that... but because it's all-PEX, so it'…

I had the main irrigation feed burst over Christmas and it's just a branch off the main line into the house with no valve! Had to turn the water off at the street, and couldn't fix it until the day after Christmas.

How did that setup pass a code inspection?!

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#392

Post by avelis »

LatteLazy wrote: post #61
avelis wrote: post #46

For general US construction, there are single-source cost-plus service contracts. Which incentivizes construction to do only the necessary and charge the max possible for it. In contrast, a concrete milestone service contract with re-bid sections of the contract that miss their milestones can create a competitive construction landscape. Things I am omitting. Red tape slowing down construction. Changing the incentive…

I thought Cost Plus incentivise people to do unnecessary work? Since getting x% of "plus" on top of a huge messily, error filled contract is more than a lean efficient one?

I think contract organization aside. If the government says it's a requirement the vendor will charge the max it can and accomplish it no matter what. So, in practice vendors have accountants on staff that will work a contract in such a way that logistically allows the vendor to charge the most it can for the contract.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#393

Post by systems_glitch »

latchkey wrote: post #162
systems_glitch wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good chance the original work was done with a bad batch of pipe, or worse, some contractor used Type M (thinwall) pipe.

Another interesting thing I learned about just yesterday! Type M vs. Type L. Apparently it also depends on the ph of the water... https://www.familyhandyman.com/article/copper-pipe-types/

Also your AHJ and plumber. I want to say in NY we were forbidden to use Type M for anything other than hydronic heating.

I would argue that a good plumber would recommend PEX over piping a house in Type M.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#394

Post by jessaustin »

gruez wrote: post #333
swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All expenses have grown faster than wages, or wages have not kept up with inflation Either way its a pay drop.

> All expenses have grown faster than wages, or wages have not kept up with inflation Source? Even the famously wrong[1] productivity/wage gap graph from epi.org admits that wage has at least been growing in real terms. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/6rtoh4/produc...

I've seen some pretty dumb arguments linked here but that one takes the cake. The EPI graph isn’t measuring productivity vs. pay, even for "typical workers"; it’s measuring wage inequality. Umm yes it is a problem that wages for the vast majority of workers have stagnated; the possibility that some CEOs have done well doesn't counteract that. Also if they don't like the particular figures that "EPI" used, maybe they would prefer the Fed's research that shows exactly the same phenomenon using different data sources? [0]

Then there is some reference to Mankiw making some assumption about labor supply and demand being infinitely differentiable and continuous, as well as violating "Rule V" in the adjacent sidebar. Meanwhile the newly-constructed local Taco Bell has two employees, a closed dining room, and the drive-in queue starts on the road before the entrance to the parking lot. This is my shocked face, at Mankiw doing something dumb.

Essentially, we should not see 40 year runs of compensation lagging productivity due to some outsized returns to shareholders. That would likely reveal a structural problem in the labor market, at least by my understanding. "This would be a bad thing and our system is perfect so this accusation of badness must be wrong!" OK, Pollyanna. It would be inconvenient if the increased market concentration we see in every industry has given the remaining firms greater pricing power both as buyers of labor and inputs and sellers of products, so let's assume that didn't happen even though this graph clearly shows it.

Truth in advertising for this subreddit, it seems. Psychological commitment to the status quo yields unconvincing arguments plainly contradicted by public experience.

[0] https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synops...

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#395

Post by mindslight »

jessaustin wrote: post #391
matwood wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the main irrigation feed burst over Christmas and it's just a branch off the main line into the house with no valve! Had to turn the water off at the street, and couldn't fix it until the day after Christmas.

How did that setup pass a code inspection?!

Maybe they're not in an area where it freezes, so the main shutoff doesn't need to be inside the house, and there's no need to shut off and drain the silcock in the winter?

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#396

Post by jessaustin »

mindslight wrote: post #395
jessaustin wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did that setup pass a code inspection?!

Maybe they're not in an area where it freezes, so the main shutoff doesn't need to be inside the house, and there's no need to shut off and drain the silcock in the winter?

Let's assume all that is true. Still, shit breaks, and all branches off the main have to be valved separately. With the current setup, contamination (e.g. by sewage) of a branch couldn't be isolated from the house. That is not acceptable.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#397

Post by mindslight »

jessaustin wrote: post #396
mindslight wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they're not in an area where it freezes, so the main shutoff doesn't need to be inside the house, and there's no need to shut off and drain the silcock in the winter?

Let's assume all that is true. Still, shit breaks, and all branches off the main have to be valved separately. With the current setup, contamination (e.g. by sewage) of a branch couldn't be isolated from the house. That is not acceptable.

I was the one who started the thread thinking that shutoffs on branches were the norm, and apparently that's just not the case everywhere.

Also I don't know what you mean about sewage contamination? Sewage contamination of potable water lines would indicate a hugely weird problem.

AFAIK backflow preventers (fancy check valves), which prevent water in the house from going back into the municipal distribution, are standard on new installs. But I think that requirement is recent as of the past few decades, so most houses aren't going to have them.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#398

Post by jessaustin »

mindslight wrote: post #397
jessaustin wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's assume all that is true. Still, shit breaks, and all branches off the main have to be valved separately. With the current setup, contamination (e.g. by sewage) of a branch couldn't be isolated from the house. That is not acceptable.

I was the one who started the thread thinking that shutoffs on branches were the norm, and apparently that's just not the case everywhere. Also I don't know what you mean about sewage contamination? Sewage contamination of potable water lines would indicate a hugely weird problem. AFAIK backflow preventers (fancy check valves), which prevent water in the house from going back into the municipal distribution, are stan…

I suppose that depends on the typical age of houses in your area? Just as supply lines inside houses might get contaminated, supply lines outside houses might get contaminated. Perhaps from sewage, perhaps from runoff, or whatever. Outside lines are more likely to be broken by sloppy excavation, for example. Simple isolation valves are sensible even in situations that don't require backflow preventers, such as on a private well.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#399

Post by wil421 »

RetpolineDrama wrote: post #327
wil421 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just paid $8000 to get my copper redone in PEX. After the tenth pin hole leak and lots of shark bite fixes, I am not fond of copper.

Well I hope you plan to move/sell, in my opinion PEX will be banned in 20 years and you'll have a hard time selling without remediation. PEX is absolutely loaded with carcinogenic compounds and endocrine disruptors that actively leech into your water, especially if you have a hot water recirculation system (standard/code on new homes) >After the tenth pin hole leak and lots of shark bite fixes, I am not fond of coppe…

> Phthalate exposure from drinking water via cPVC or PEX is low when compared to other dietary sources. Nonetheless, a shift from cPVC to PEX pipes in households would decrease potential exposure to phthalates.[1]

Almost everything I drink out of is lined with plastic. Milk or juice containers, water bottles, and most reusable on the go cups are made of plastics or have a plastic liner.

[1] https://hero.epa.gov/hero/index.cfm/reference/details/refere...

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#400

Post by mindslight »

jessaustin wrote: post #398
mindslight wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the one who started the thread thinking that shutoffs on branches were the norm, and apparently that's just not the case everywhere. Also I don't know what you mean about sewage contamination? Sewage contamination of potable water lines would indicate a hugely weird problem. AFAIK backflow preventers (fancy check valves), which prevent water in the house from going back into the municipal distribution, are stan…

I suppose that depends on the typical age of houses in your area? Just as supply lines inside houses might get contaminated, supply lines outside houses might get contaminated. Perhaps from sewage, perhaps from runoff, or whatever. Outside lines are more likely to be broken by sloppy excavation, for example. Simple isolation valves are sensible even in situations that don't require backflow preventers, such as on a p…

I still don't really understand what you're saying.

Yes, I agree isolation valves are good. But as far as what code requires? It seems that if isolation valves aren't required on branches, then the only isolation valve that is required is the main house valve that can isolate it from the street water main.

So I can't figure out what else you think would have been required to pass inspection in the comment you originally responded to.

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