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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#391

Post by eliasmacpherson »

sylens wrote: post #358
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

The M1 is a marvel, however there's a vast range of things it's not going to do anytime soon, e.g. CUDA, eGPU etc - nevermind games.

https://store.steampowered.com/macos

Had they not pushed Metal so hard over Vulkan - then things would be different. There's time yet for Apple to change course. (Seems Valve open sourced MoltenVK, so that's one barrier removed at least!)

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#392

Post by ultrasounder »

jimnotgym wrote: post #379
sylens wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

It depends what is important to you. Firstly I am mostly plugged in, so battery life is secondary. Secondly I am a heavy Excel user, and it just isn't as good on Apple Thirdly I use PowerBI which isn't available for Apple Lastly I have hybrid Active Directory, and can deploy SSO trivially to my remote Windows users, which I can't on Mac. During Covid I could mail someone a PC and get them signed on to AD resources in…

THIS! Apple:- fair warning an inside Bollywood joke.

Apple:- “Mere paas M1/M2/MAX,A16, Hain “ and looks at MSFT and asks “Tere paas kya Hain”?

MSFT:- Shoulder shrugs and says “Mere Paas Excel Hain”.

Apple has nothing on Excel. And Numbers languishes Excel by a few generations. Esp after the boatload of updates that Excel APIs got last year. I guess it’s all about priorities and what’s important for that business at that time.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#393

Post by MBCook »

jimnotgym wrote: post #379
sylens wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

It depends what is important to you. Firstly I am mostly plugged in, so battery life is secondary. Secondly I am a heavy Excel user, and it just isn't as good on Apple Thirdly I use PowerBI which isn't available for Apple Lastly I have hybrid Active Directory, and can deploy SSO trivially to my remote Windows users, which I can't on Mac. During Covid I could mail someone a PC and get them signed on to AD resources in…

I’m not advocating everyone switch to Mac. I’m sorry if I gave that impression.

I’m advocating Windows/Linux users should have the choice of a machine roughly as good. Doesn’t have to 1:1, but clearly there is a lot of space for “better” past what everyone is selling today.

And I don’t see that improving much after 2 years and I find it kind of sad.

Why should you have to switch OSes and everything to have a fast computer with good battery life that’s quiet and cool?

You shouldn’t.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#394

Post by Dennip »

moomin wrote: post #376
karmelapple wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who went back to AMD/Intel stuff? Any Apple user is far away from that, and comparing the performance, heat, noise, and battery differences between my Intel and Apple Silicon computers, I have no desire to regularly use an Intel machine until they make some stratospheric leap. (I still need it for some x86 vagrant boxes I have though!)

The entertaining thing here is that Apple’s walled garden is intended to keep people in, but here it’s keeping them out. The M1 is a technical marvel, but if you’re not already tied to Apple, it’s nowhere near good enough to warrant leaping that wall.

But isn't the walled garden in thsi case part of the appeal? i.e. running windows on it bare metal would not be as performant because of all the tighly coupled hardware-software integration apple do?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#395

Post by temac »

Cupprum wrote: post #359
treis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely asking because I don't know. Is there anything that's better about ARM or is the Apple/TSMC being better than Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung, et. al.?

1 - The instruction set is more interesting because it is smaller. 2 - Arm also implements weak ordering which is type of memory model. It allows instructions to be separated into groups based on whether they affect other instructions. This allows these groups to skip some waiting lines. (Magic). X86 has strong ordering, which can make it slower in specific scenarios.

3 - The instruction set is made of fixed length instructions

TBH there are various mostly-Apple/TSMC-"exclusive" tricks too, for why their chips are better than the others:

A - On Apple Silicon, pages are larger, but not too large

B - there are various accelerators leveraged by libraries provided in the OS (or the provided toolchains, etc.)

C - Apple got to use the best TSMC process years before the competition.

D - TSMC is ahead (I'm curious of what Zen4 will give on laptop, btw)

So it's mixed. The ARM ISA probably plays a small role in the perf of Apple Silicon vs. x86 chips, but is probably not the main cause of the perf gap.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#396

Post by MBCook »

ultrasounder wrote: post #392
jimnotgym wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what is important to you. Firstly I am mostly plugged in, so battery life is secondary. Secondly I am a heavy Excel user, and it just isn't as good on Apple Thirdly I use PowerBI which isn't available for Apple Lastly I have hybrid Active Directory, and can deploy SSO trivially to my remote Windows users, which I can't on Mac. During Covid I could mail someone a PC and get them signed on to AD resources in…

THIS! Apple:- fair warning an inside Bollywood joke. Apple:- “Mere paas M1/M2/MAX,A16, Hain “ and looks at MSFT and asks “Tere paas kya Hain”? MSFT:- Shoulder shrugs and says “Mere Paas Excel Hain”. Apple has nothing on Excel. And Numbers languishes Excel by a few generations. Esp after the boatload of updates that Excel APIs got last year. I guess it’s all about priorities and what’s important for that business at t…

That wasn’t what I was trying to say.

I know there is Windows only software. I know there is software that’s better on Windows.

I don’t care if people switch to Mac.

They should all have the choice of a chip as good (or reasonably close) to the M1.

But they don’t. And it doesn’t look like that’s changing. And I find that sad.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#397

Post by coolca »

fleddr wrote: post #295

Honestly, if Apple were to care, they could undo the course of computing history where at one point Windows became the monopoly. Launch a 500$ category laptop, say 3 gens old. That would soon be M1. Won't be very profitable, but a direct competitor to the typical crappy Windows low-end laptop. Yet it's so much better in performance, security, battery life, total lifespan, etc. Double down on making it idiot-proof. Op…

They could make a m1 SE in late 23 with a plastic case as old MacBooks, same ports of m1 air, slightly less battery and 1080p screen at 500$ and it will sell like crazy.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#398

Post by MBCook »

borissk wrote: post #372
sylens wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

The base MBA comes with only 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD and has very limited upgrade option. Also Apple charges crazy prices for more RAM and storage. For $1000 one can buy a Windows laptop with 32GB RAM and 1TB SDD, that can cheaply be upgraded to 64GB memory and 10+TB SSD (2x SO-DIMM slots + 2x M2 PCIe slots).

I’m not arguing people should switch to an M1 Mac.

I’m trying to say I think people should have the option of something like it on Windows, not just the hot/power hungry stuff out there today.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#399

Post by matsemann »

sylens wrote: post #358
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

I guess that says something about the concessions some of us will do to avoid using MacOS.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#400

Post by makeitdouble »

sylens wrote: post #358
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

This was the general sentiment when Apple was on PowerPC, and we were buying pricier mac laptops just because of the OS.

I don’t have actual experience on a windows machine right now, but if the linux subsystem is getting good enough, switching there could be worth the hardware and price penalty.

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