Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#391

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:33 PM UTC

lijogdfljk wrote: post #305

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The closest work-related argument I've heard is that some people work better when they're free of distractions at the office. That takes us back to companies being collaborative human endeavors. One may feel they work better in isolation, but part of ones job is to interact with others, even if that's not fun. Have you worked in an open office or cubical farm? My hearing the sales guys isn't 'collaboration', it's d…

As a big supporter of a WFH choice (and have myself for ~10 years): > Mass WFH started in 2020 - I don't think you can link a Q2 2022 productivity decrease to WFH, considering the previous quarter will have had even more WFH. In fact, it's easier to link it to the return to the office. I would honestly be impressed if a initial WFH productivity decline wasn't found. A lot of people were not prepared for WFH. They did…

You'd think that productivity declined in 2020, but based upon those charts it only did a little bit in Q1 and then bounced back hard in Q2 and Q3. I think people overcompensated, but the fact that it has stayed high for the rest of the lockdown tells me that it's not in fact the productivity killer that it's claimed to be.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#392

Post by khyryk » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:33 PM UTC

addicted wrote: post #300

My biggest frustration with the WFH discussion has been that the vast majority of people say that the #1 (and sometimes only) reason they prefer WFH is to save time on the commute. But this has not led to any discussions on how we can actually improve the commute, improve housing policy so people can live closer to work, etc. Instead, people have simply decided that theh will WFH instead, an option which isn’t availa…

This privilege (which is really just code for $$$) you mention existed in the same exact way prior to mass WFH, except that it resulted in more air pollution, more wasteful traffic, etc. Individuals rationally take a small scale solution to a direct problem instead of potentially solving a huge problem in 50+ years. The post in general is like ranting about not collectively curing cancer when someone asks for a bandage for a small wound.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#393

Post by fbanon » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:33 PM UTC

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#394

Post by kjkjadksj » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:34 PM UTC

I like working from home for one major reason: my life is more significant than this job for my boss. I get about two hours back from not commuting that I can do whatever with, and I am not paid for commuting either. I can choose what my work environment looks like, be it at home or a buzzy cafe or a silent library or park with birds singing. I can actually take some time during the day to run errands while there is zero traffic, go to the dmv during the week instead of on saturday along with half the city, versus having to get these things done after work in rush hour traffic or burn a weekend day just to catch up on chores and errands. I can multitask in zoom meetings, by doing stuff like folding clothes or working out or just bringing the laptop out to work in my garden. I have also been able to spend a lot more time getting to know my neighbors thanks to all this available time we all have from not commuting and having more flexible schedules. If anything I feel like I am socializing with friends a lot more than if I had to come home late from the office and leave early for the office in the morning. We still have social events with the coworkers in town so I am not missing any interaction from them. I have no desire to ever commute again when I have gained so much thus far by avoiding it.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#395

Post by SuoDuanDao » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #208

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #90

It sounds like you're an extrovert. The tech scene tends to have more introverts, hence why this is a controversial opinion for your friend circle. I think of it like this - extroverts gain energy from social interaction, introverts lose energy from social interaction. Working in an office environment with all extroverts is great so long as the company's work doesn't require more introverts than it has available. But…

This part: > I see this a lot on HN. There is an explicit bias here for introverts and deep work. This view overlooks the more extroverted roles usually held by direct managers and product managers. (Introverted sales doesn't even make sense in most cases; so ignore that side.) I have seen too many introverts who think they are doing genius-level work, but hardly talk to their teammates. The worst reinvent the wheel…

If more people saw the benefits of having both on a daily basis I imagine this conversation would look rather different. Speaking only for myself, I was told from a very young age that being introverted was a disadvantage I'd have to overcome, and that the world was built for extroverts - in the case of office culture, I wouldn't even disagree with the latter. A bit of a backlash as introverts assert our own value is probably to be expected. And a lot of that assertion just comes in the form of insisting that no, we don't want what our extroverted colleagues want, and the fact that we skew towards the quiet side doesn't mean we skew towards wanting it less.

That said, I also don't want my extroverted colleagues to lack the option to all work under one roof, if that's what they prefer. Because most working groups benefit from having both on the team, the question has to be how to make an environment that benefits both. Frankly, the employer is in a relatively good position since it makes no sense to overpay workers who have moved to a low-cost-of-living area or maintain office space in an expensive city. But attracting top talent is definitely more complex post covid, given that different kinds of talent has different needs and wants.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#396

Post by purpleblue » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:37 PM UTC

I love going in to the office. I willingly go 5 days a week despite the 45 min commute. The reason is I get separation from work and home, I can talk with people, get free lunch, etc. Also, I'm much more productive and in the face of an impending recession, I want to be as productive as possible so that I can keep my job.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#397

Post by hacksoi » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

He's asking why you prefer WFH and you didn't answer him.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#398

Post by ghaff » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

z9znz wrote: post #298

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities is night and day different in terms of commute and enjoyment opportunity. Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. Plus it's all accessible without a car. Meanwhile, in the US, it's usually a very different story. Doing something after…

It really depends where you live both in Europe and the US. Many people in Europe have long commutes (and even public transportation can be time-consuming). At least some number of people in the US whose companies have city offices choose to live in the city and walk/cycle/take public transit but many do not.

If I were to commute to our city office it's something like 3 hours round trip daily. Even being able to go 95% of the way by train, that's exhausting. (I did it for 18 months half-time with another company. It was not sustainable.) However, I could also--if I chose--live within walking distance and certainly easy public transit distance of our office. I choose not to do so because I like my semi-rural house.

But if I did live a short walk away from our office I would go in semi-regularly. And can certainly understand someone who lives and works in a city wanting to go into an office--especially given they probably live in a relatively small apartment.

>than Denver, Dallas, or most other big US cities.

Dallas yes. Denver has a pretty nice downtown. Boston, Manhattan, even San Francisco. It's a matter of where the office is and where you choose to live.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#399

Post by metadaemon » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

dont__panic wrote: post #340

Most of my distaste for WFO comes from two places: - the USA's failure to provide even a single city that's pleasant to live in and travel around without a car - tech company insistence on open office layouts that are not conducive to deep work The first one sounds like a commute problem... but it manifests in more ways than you think. When you have to travel around in a car, everything is expensive. Parking is a pai…

I love my midwest city. It doesn't have a lot of flashy tourist traps, but man the walks are great. I can get to local grocery, hardware and entertainment in a few minutes. Tons of great parks close by and really friendly people all around. Cost of living is so cheap that we can easily afford to travel whenever and wherever we want.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#400

Post by coryfklein » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

I work remote and prefer to do so, and yet I sympathize with this so much. Why does everyone feel like we have to split into pro-remote and pro-office camps; it's obvious to me that each has its pros and cons.

Although I LOVE working remote, I sorely miss those interactions that happen at the office. I find they make me happier (being a socialite), help me build relationships that lubricate work interactions, and often are a much needed break.

However I count myself extremely lucky: my company will pay for me to fly in to HQ several times a year and put me up in a hotel and I take them up on this. I spend 1 week in the office, I plan on getting ZERO sprint work done, and I simply use that time to reconnect with my colleagues (who try to fly/drive in that same week), do group activities, planning meetings, eating out at night. It's simultaneously energizing AND exhausting.

After that week is over, I feel so much better and I fly back to my home office and find that I have a renewed sense of energy and creativity and am also much more productive with my "real" sprint work.

So I guess I get the best of both worlds! If you can get your company to do something like this, I highly recommend it. Although I know it is quite expensive.