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Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

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Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#391

Post by bern4444 »

bezospen15 wrote: post #388
reggieband wrote: post #137

When I first started programming I was pretty lucky to get a job at a games company. My first lead was a veteran who had shipped a lot of AAA titles and he loved his war stories. He was personally interested in performance and he would often cite hardware timings for specific cpu instructions. One story he told a couple of times was about some grey beard who was before his time. The grey beard was once a legend in th…

Why should we have to uproot everything we know for the flavor of the month??? No other industry does this! You can work the same job for 45 years in any other role

I think the parent comment is referencing how much is built into JS natively today that people used to use jquery to do.

Jquery is also a library not unlike any other a la react, redux, observables etc.

Jquery was successful but now there are better more powerful tools.

Lots of jquery can now be done natively or with better tools.

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#392

Post by bern4444 »

zendaven wrote: post #44

I still use jQuery for frontend JavaScript when I can. It's so much more efficient than native JavaScript. I can't imagine anyone prefers to write document.getElementById('element').style.display = 'none' rather than $('#element').hide();

Even easier:

  export const hideElementById = (elementId) => {
    document.getElementById(`#${elementId}`).style.display = 'none'
  };
Or perhaps

  export const toggleElementById = (elementId) => {
    const element = document.getElementById(`#${elementId}`);

    const newDisplayValue = element.style.display === 'none' ? 'block' : 'none';

    element.style.display = newDisplayValue;
  };

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#393

Post by resonious »

kordlessagain wrote: post #316
reggieband wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fair criticism of how I chose to tell the story. The line you quoted was supposed to refer to the character introduced in the second paragraph and not to a generic stereotype of aged man. I can see how my choice of wording created an implication that people who have grey beards are old and that it is this oldness that contributes to their unwillingness to learn. The familiar cliche of "you can't teach an ol…

> I think of this story whenever I see jQuery popup on Hacker News. There is always a strong contingent of devs who swear by this library. But to me, they are like the old grey beard who didn't update his knowledge as the times changed. This is a strawman argument. It's a biased view you hold. Because of that, you make up a story to match your biases around people who use such-and-such library don't think they need t…

> > I think of this story whenever I see jQuery popup on Hacker News. There is always a strong contingent of devs who swear by this library. But to me, they are like the old grey beard who didn't update his knowledge as the times changed.

> This is a strawman argument.

I'm not sure I follow. It reads to me like the original commenter is arguing that jQuery supporters have out-of-date knowledge. What's the strawman? jQuery supporters?

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#394

Post by aledalgrande »

dlandis wrote: post #234
reggieband wrote: post #137

When I first started programming I was pretty lucky to get a job at a games company. My first lead was a veteran who had shipped a lot of AAA titles and he loved his war stories. He was personally interested in performance and he would often cite hardware timings for specific cpu instructions. One story he told a couple of times was about some grey beard who was before his time. The grey beard was once a legend in th…

> But to me, they are like the old grey beard who didn't update his knowledge as the times changed. Maybe it's just me but with all the rampant age discrimination nowadays in tech, I really don't like to see the continued propagation of this stereotype. All sorts of people of all ages are unwilling or unable to update their knowledge of new tech, there is no reason to link this characteristic to someones advanced age…

Taking the age factor out, I have seen time and again senior level devs that have outdated knowledge and are, alas, not functioning as senior devs any more. This is not just in frameworks, but also in design and methodology. Once they reached a certain level they got lazy and decided they were good enough to stop learning every day.

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#395

Post by zhte415 »

seydor wrote: post #48

The more Jq goes out of fashion, the better it becomes, because it means it stops changing and you can rely on it for decades. The other framework that looks interesting is htmx

I'm using HTMX with Flask through revamping a site previously with server side page rendering + AJAX. It is excellent.

Some of the more contrived AJAX to update parts of a page is being replaced by HTMX, some page loads are being replaced. It is working very smoothly and at a vastly higher speed (also, incremental) than redoing everything with React, the other option tabled. I'll certainly be using it more.

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#396

Post by nonethewiser »

dlandis wrote: post #234
reggieband wrote: post #137

When I first started programming I was pretty lucky to get a job at a games company. My first lead was a veteran who had shipped a lot of AAA titles and he loved his war stories. He was personally interested in performance and he would often cite hardware timings for specific cpu instructions. One story he told a couple of times was about some grey beard who was before his time. The grey beard was once a legend in th…

> But to me, they are like the old grey beard who didn't update his knowledge as the times changed. Maybe it's just me but with all the rampant age discrimination nowadays in tech, I really don't like to see the continued propagation of this stereotype. All sorts of people of all ages are unwilling or unable to update their knowledge of new tech, there is no reason to link this characteristic to someones advanced age…

But the guy in the story was old.

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#397

Post by nonethewiser »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #390
adrusi wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're trying to draw too much of an analogy here. The point is just that advertising jQuery expertise on your resume today is evidence (though not especially strong evidence) that you might be someone whose skills are of diminishing relevance. Myself, I'm not convinced there's much harm in using jQuery, it's not exactly heavyweight. But if in fact fewer and fewer pages include it, then your expertise is rele…

I am not sure that the story has anything to do with the situation of jQuery today, because as I can see in your story there was a guy whose skills were of diminishing relevance, but surrounded by people whose skills in that area were never a thing in the first place, what I can draw from your story is that it's useless to cultivate an expertise in a niche field because it will be irrelevant in a few years?

I don't think you're really listening

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#398

Post by xtalx »

My take on this is, if you are writing enough JS in your app that the “terseness” of jQuery seems appealing you maybe shouldn’t be writing jQuery or vanilla (unless you’ve built a really nice framework/library specifically for your app/use case/whatever). My point is (I think) jQuery was/is best suited for “sprinkles” of js. These days with “sprinkles” of js jQuery isn’t worth the download/parse cost. If you have more than “sprinkles” use Svelte or Preact or Solid or React or Vue or Mithril or whatever.

SPRINKLES

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#399

Post by TAKEMYMONEY »

lelandfe wrote: post #122

I am all for dropping jQuery. But... Unless this team perfectly did a 1:1 replacement of jQuery calls with equivalent native JS functions, this isn't "removing a 30KB dependency reduced blocking time by 11%." It's "we rewrote our JS and it reduced blocking time"

Stuck out to me too, but the article is wrong, they didn't "reduce blocking time" by 11%, they reduced how long it takes to complete "JS Long Tasks" by 11% (63ms).

They do claim a "reduction in JS size" on all JS apps "between 31% and 49%."

Re: Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end

#400

Post by lelandfe »

TAKEMYMONEY wrote: post #399
lelandfe wrote: post #122

I am all for dropping jQuery. But... Unless this team perfectly did a 1:1 replacement of jQuery calls with equivalent native JS functions, this isn't "removing a 30KB dependency reduced blocking time by 11%." It's "we rewrote our JS and it reduced blocking time"

Stuck out to me too, but the article is wrong, they didn't "reduce blocking time" by 11%, they reduced how long it takes to complete "JS Long Tasks" by 11% (63ms). They do claim a "reduction in JS size" on all JS apps "between 31% and 49%."

Ahh, nice. Thanks. Believe it or not, "long tasks" is a meaningful term: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Long_Tasks_.... They're what Time to Interactive measures.
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