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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

As one of those private tutors that the ultra-rich hire, I can definitely support most of what you've said here. The greatest service that private tutoring provides is structure, accountability, and guidance. A dedicated student working independently through quality practice materials (many of which are cheap or free) can absolutely attain most if not all of the beneficial outcomes of preparing with a tutor/service.…

Thank you. You absolutely validate my own observations.

I went to college. My parents did, as did my extended family on one side. I saw both sides and chose this one.

I picked a town where my children would be surrounded by an environment where cool was defined as “good at school”. I didn’t want external influences contradicting my influence.

My child is dedicated, but I taught that dedication.

A parent doesn’t have to be rich to understand the importance of a good education. My mother came from a dirt poor background.

People never say it’s an advantage to have parents that care about education. They always put the blame somewhere else. The parents worked too hard, whatever. For different traits, some parents are just better than others. Academics is just one trait. Is the most important? No, but it’s one that’s easy to measure.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#392
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MIT article literally says "diversity" is one of their goals. Seems like you're arguing against yourself.

> The MIT article literally says "diversity" is one of their goals. Seems like you're arguing against yourself. Except no one goes to MIT because it's "diverse", whatever that even means anymore. They go there because it is one of the best schools in the world.

We're talking about the school's goals in forming a class, not the applicants' goals. Most schools that are among the "best in the world" find they can weigh multiple factors to decide who to admit, and there's no single magic number that does that job for them.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#394

It's clear the SAT/ACT has predictive power for highly-selective colleges, such as MIT. And therefore, they are valuable for these colleges – especially for the Math scores as MIT suggests. The value of SAT/ACT scores decreases as selectivity decreases or as math abilities matter less for admission (e.g., liberal arts programs). Here are some related points: - Harvard considers roughly 4 in 5 applicants to be academi…

> Harvard considers roughly 4 in 5 applicants to be academically capable of doing the work at Harvard

I have no doubt that this is true of Harvard. I mean, after all, you can pick your own classes! That said, I think there is a difference between admitting just those capable of doing the work vs. a set of some of the best of the best, in that that second group will be the one filling the advanced physics classes for first years or whatever.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#395
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's cut the shit then and just do IQ tests. This is the best technical university in the world offering the best technical education in history. It's where the smartest minds learn foundational knowledge that will enable them to make amazing technological contributions to mankind. Not everything needs to be a battleground for the boring diversity of skin color. It's actually important that we get the most qualif…

But shouldn't starting points be taken into consideration when you are judging someone's merit?

I've never seen somebody who opposes meritocracy actual suggest taking starting points into consideration - instead, they demand that easily observable, intrinsic physical characteristics be used as a proxy for "starting point".

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#396

My problem with SAT/ACT actually has nothing to do with the test itself. I grew up very poor in suburban middle of nowhere and even with a waiver for the fee, I had no way of actually getting to a testing center. Parents worked 24/7 to make ends meet, no real public transport and this was before Uber and Lyft. The real culprit here is the lack of public infrastructure.

That's not the political argument being made against them though.

Yes, I'm aware. That's why I'm giving a different perspective.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#397

> Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT Can't explain why an IQ test predicts success in cognitively demanding work?

The SAT/ACT aren't IQ tests.

Yes they are:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#398

I grew up poor, and from my anecdotal experience people do better on the SAT if they "are rich". You can also pay people to take the test for you. Maybe it's because they don't have to spend their days worry about getting shot, stabbed or beaten to the ground by gangs. Maybe it's because they get to eat every day. I guess, perhaps, they get more quality study time. Or, heck maybe you're all right, random questions -…

I grew up poor enough that I got a full need-based ride to a state school. The SAT helped me differentiate myself from all the kids with expensive summer camps, tutoring for competitions, and expensive sports lessons that didn't actually do that well in school. > Google style hiring process A couple leetcode questions is hardly a difficult task compared to getting matched for residency as a doctor or accruing enough…

Don't want to go too much into this, but thanks for the thoughtful response.

> A couple leetcode questions is hardly a difficult task

I don't have a problem with data structures and the like. I've been building software for >20 years. I can do pretty much anything I want with a computer. However, and I can't articulate this well, but where I come from "high pressure" things mean people are getting killed - it's not fun. I don't do hackathons either for the same reason. The whole argumentative style of communication doesn't work so I just stop answering. Like I said, they are filtering out people like me on purpose, and it's fine.

> Did you try going to community college and transferring?

That is not something I could do at this stage. I tried to get into a few online degrees which have a more flexible schedule.

Several years ago, I did try to go to a community college, but none of my current bachelors credits would transfer (they are from an online school which no institution apparently counts as valid). So I'd have to start over from scratch.

This is turning into a life story here. I have indeed tried - for a very, very long time. I've given up on the idea of going to school or working at some hip company now, and I've made peace with it.

Anyway, thanks for asking.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#399
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But shouldn't starting points be taken into consideration when you are judging someone's merit?

I've never seen somebody who opposes meritocracy actual suggest taking starting points into consideration - instead, they demand that easily observable, intrinsic physical characteristics be used as a proxy for "starting point".

But there are a number of studies demonstrating how race & class impact things (when controlled for other factors) like teacher perception, grading, letters of recommendation, not to mention just the fact that if you are growing up in a black (or white) household that has $5 in wealth, you'll have less access to educational opportunity than the white (or black, albeit far more rarely) household with $200,000 in wealth.

We shouldn't seek to control for these factors?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

IQ is quite heritible. This is especially so when upbringing is not neglectful. People who land very high paying tech roles are probably average higher in IQ than the general population. Your daughter likely has the benefit of strong academic genetics. A child like that who puts in effort (i.e. works through a book) is going to do amazingly well. I'd also argue that families who value academics are also more likely t…

IQ also fluctuates a lot, but yes, she is a lot like me (reads, thinks math/science is interesting, etc).

She bought only one prep book, for $35, with her own money. I guarantee the very poorest can get that one book, even from the library.

Parents absolutely influence children, otherwise what’s the point of parenting? This is a good thing. I’m just saying the $$ part is way overblown.

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