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Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

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Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#391

Post by zozbot234 »

rhino369 wrote: post #375
sokoloff wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really can’t wrap my head around an argument that amounts to “that person only succeeded on the test because they put in the time and effort to learn the material and their hard work is the primary thing that separated their performance from this other person; if that other person would have tried, they could have done just as well; that’s not a meritocracy!”

To play devil's advocate, these tests are supposed to test aptitude to predict ability to learn--not test what you already know. They are more akin to an IQ test than a bar exam or medical board exams that test your knowledge. If just you want to test their ability to perform in school, why aren't grades the better metric? It is very likely that increased preparation of the test reduces the tests ability to predict a…

> If just you want to test their ability to perform in school, why aren't grades the better metric?

Because grades are not independently assessed by a third party? No matter what the theory behind it, the SAT is really, really close to an independent test of learned material. And many people would surely argue that having your prerequisites down pat and being fully ready for subsequent learning is at least a major part of what "aptitude" means in practice.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#392

Post by rhino369 »

criddell wrote: post #309
Gareth321 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. Really? I find it very easy. Racial discrimination is wrong. Period. You're pointing to a social discrepancy and saying "eh, maybe racial discrimination is okay because it might make the demographics more equal." I urge you to fully consider what this entails.…

Claims of discrimination in top schools are often based around the incorrect belief that admissions are based mostly on academic qualifications. That hasn't been true for a while now. I'm not sure where I heard it, but the admissions departments aren't looking for well rounded students, they are looking for a well rounded class.

A lot of that is just code words for racial, ethnic, and minority quotas.

I get that it doesn't make sense to require every admitted at Harvard plays the Violin/Cello. But it's easy to discriminate against a minority--like Asians--with facially neutral quotas that are designed to exclude them. "We've already got too many classical music instrument players" when the admissions dean knows Asians are more likely to play those instruments.

Schools in state's that banned affirmative action still practice it by applying these standards.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#393

Post by raxxorrax »

AniseAbyss wrote: post #368
lukas099 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is creating a purely merit-based institution really an identity policy though? I see it as an identity-blind policy, unless you define identity to include merit.

The fallacy of meritocracy. You stand on the shoulders of your parents. If you come from a family of crackheads on the bad side of the rail tracks you already lost the race long before 8th grade.

While this is very true, you cannot force all parents to become crackheads, so you will always have different outcomes. We have the same problem with wealth in that regard.

You can only improve education in a way that is offers support for people in difficult homes. Perhaps their difficult childhood will ultimately hinder them from becoming the best. But then perhaps their children will fare better.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#394

Post by franklampard »

ransom1538 wrote: post #367
quadrifoliate wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It consisted of going to some Indian dude’s house for an hour every Saturday for a summer. If that’s a game changer what does that say about American K-8 math education? Ironically, this is scouting round a theory I have long espoused – the failure of American K-8 math education has nothing to do with teaching , and everything to do with culture . Sure, going to some Indian dude's house every Saturday for a summer…

I always wondered if these parents raising test ninjas are doing their kids favors. We have google now. I don't need to know the capital of Ukraine - I can just google it. STEM is great to study, but most of the academics in it after 8th grade are not particularity useful. I still haven't been asked to solve a differential equation at work. I have never been asked what school I went to during an interview (i wished t…

pretty sure the test ninjas build Google

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#395

Post by giantg2 »

It seems ridiculous that we are denying opportunities to people who have worked hard and done well on the objective measures.

Especially when it comes to public schools, the opportunities should be equal. Set objective criteria for acceptance, advanced placement, etc. Then stick to it. We shouldn't be holding opportunities away from someone because if their heritage, or someone else's heritage.

We have a STEM academy in our area that's based on effort and interest. It will only take maybe 7% of the students from the overall student population for those grades. It's based on essays and teacher recommendations. You only need a C average to qualify grade-wise. It seems completely subjective. A coworker was trying to get their kid in and it sounded like a nightmare. If this opportunity isn't based on some objective measure and doesn't constitute an advance placement (C average in the regular track), then make this opportunity available for all who want it! If demand outpaces capacity, then either set objective measures or make it a lottery. Denying some kid an opportunity because you feel like they don't want it as much as some other kid, or you feel they don't work as hard, is BS.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#396

Post by hervature »

ransom1538 wrote: post #367
quadrifoliate wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It consisted of going to some Indian dude’s house for an hour every Saturday for a summer. If that’s a game changer what does that say about American K-8 math education? Ironically, this is scouting round a theory I have long espoused – the failure of American K-8 math education has nothing to do with teaching , and everything to do with culture . Sure, going to some Indian dude's house every Saturday for a summer…

I always wondered if these parents raising test ninjas are doing their kids favors. We have google now. I don't need to know the capital of Ukraine - I can just google it. STEM is great to study, but most of the academics in it after 8th grade are not particularity useful. I still haven't been asked to solve a differential equation at work. I have never been asked what school I went to during an interview (i wished t…

> I still haven't been asked to solve a differential equation at work.

I wish this trope would go somewhere to die. First, university level education is catering to a variety of outcomes. Some people in your class have gone on to use differential equations. If not explicitly, at least in understanding how capacitors and inductors introduce periodicity to the circuit. More importantly, the people that are doing research and advancing new technology do have to use these tools. In my view, at the university level, we want to optimize the absolute ceiling of potential for a thin sliver of the population. That's how we get scientific progress. Imagine if Einstein did not have access to higher level math because it was deemed mostly not useful. The collateral damage here is that some people need to take courses to justify the professor's course.

While I do agree that well-rounded individuals are more important you are missing the fact that the takeaway of STEM courses is not "to memorize Boyle's law". If that is how you approached your studies, then I can understand how you feel the education was a waste. But the more important aspect is learning the process in which one solves a problem. Being exposed to a variety of domains exposes you to slightly different initial conditions and thus shows you a broader range of problem solving methods. Likewise, I can generate an equally silly list like yours of life lessons learned in STEM class from my own public education that are more important than the material: build a Rube-Goldberg machine with a friend, start a study group with friends, figure out how to build a rocket, sell cookies (ok not from a STEM class), build a video game with friends, find out what you like to do.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#397

Post by someguydave »

shadowgovt wrote: post #347
someguydave wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact the Constitution insists on allowing exactly this kind of discrimination in the assembly clause of the first amendment.

The freedom of assembly is specifically the freedom that was curtailed by the Civil Rights Act. Legally, it should be added... The freedom protected in the first amendment is the freedom of political assembly. The Civil Rights Act has been argued repeatedly in the Supreme Court, and the court has ruled repeatedly that the constitutionally protected freedom of assembly is not curtailed by requiring corporations, incor…

Amazing that the first part of the first amendment does not only apply to political speech.

The court was wrong and will be wrong again.

I would ask how progressives square two contradictory interpretations of the first amendment but then I realized they don’t really support the freedom of non-progressive speech anymore.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#398

Post by SyzygistSix »

chernevik wrote: post #385
SyzygistSix wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are trying to. Right now their kids supposedly spend all their time working on their GPA and SAT scores.

And others aren't. And it shows.

Part of the argument is whether or not those criteria are the best to judge who will be the future leaders. I don't know myself but I think it is a fair argument.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#399

Post by Retric »

rhino369 wrote: post #375
sokoloff wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really can’t wrap my head around an argument that amounts to “that person only succeeded on the test because they put in the time and effort to learn the material and their hard work is the primary thing that separated their performance from this other person; if that other person would have tried, they could have done just as well; that’s not a meritocracy!”

To play devil's advocate, these tests are supposed to test aptitude to predict ability to learn--not test what you already know. They are more akin to an IQ test than a bar exam or medical board exams that test your knowledge. If just you want to test their ability to perform in school, why aren't grades the better metric? It is very likely that increased preparation of the test reduces the tests ability to predict a…

Collages prep has some inertia where students who study and do test prep are significantly more likely to get through freshman year. Things generally flip by senior year where the under-preparing groups who make it that far end up outperforming.

The racially neutral way to look at it is rich white kids going to elite high schools fall behind the middle class white kids academically at elite schools. This effect is somewhat hidden by weighting all classes equally when calculating GPA.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#400

Post by sokoloff »

Lascaille wrote: post #380
AniseAbyss wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is self evident that loving, responsible parents with income provide better outcomes for their children's future.

Precisely, and that's the problem we have to solve. We need to remove that influence somehow so everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed.

You can take steps to reduce it, but we don’t (nor should we) have the will to eliminate it.

My kids will have advantages over the median kid in America and my wife and I work hard to ensure that. I don’t have to be specifically seeking to give them a relative advantage, but everything parents do to ensure an absolute improvement in their life outcome represents a relative advantage as well.

We ensure medical care, nutritional food, calm, regular, and loving interactions with adults, social and physical learning through play, clearly prioritize academic achievement, take care to discipline them appropriately, allow them to struggle-then-succeed at many things, expose them to science, cooking, math, computers, electronics, live in a house full of books and Kindles, have a family pet, take trips to local museums and farther off places, expose them to music, a second language, various sports, ensure they feel safe/secure/loved, that they have a quiet, comfortable place to sleep, etc. We’re fortunate to be able to do these things, but it also takes some sacrifice to do them.

If you want to remove those influences entirely, I can’t see doing it without having the state raise the children in standardized conditions. And of course, no one would tolerate that.

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