More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#391

Post by sosborn » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Their universal concern is the cost. I have a senior in high school right now and although I think you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it) that the…

If he doesn't want to be in the trades, he should go to Texas Tech. The degree will serve him just as well as a degree from any other school, bar a handful of elite institutions.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#392

Post by ativzzz » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

giaour wrote: post #295

vorpalhex wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the issue is that you can get these loans regardless your program. Chemical engineering? Here you go. Studying gay romances in 14th century literature? Yup, here's your 50k too. One of those people can pay that loan off in two years. One of them is likely never going to pay it off without a career change. Of course, we probably don't want loan officers picking what poor people can major in either.

The person studying gay romances in 14th century literature is probably a PhD student with a stipend and full tuition remission. They're getting subsidized by MBA tuition dollars, not by loans.

Sure, but they go through an undergrad in English or something similar before they are a PhD, for which they take the loan, then they don't earn any money (just enough to subsist) while the interest on their undergrad loan accrues. Or the interest may be deferred but the loan is still there.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#393

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Their universal concern is the cost. I have a senior in high school right now and although I think you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it) that the…

I know some pretty good biotech start ups spun out from Texas Tech - I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#394

Post by saltminer » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

scarecrowbob wrote: post #190

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

The answer I get from my friends in the higher ed business are that the costs are covering decreased investment by state level government in colleges and universities. On one hand, I am not sure I agree. My son is going to the same state university I went to, and it's substantial more expensive, but they 've also built a ton of infrastructure that I find questionable. On the other hand, I don't really have data and w…

I feel like it's a bit of a Pandora's box. Once the student loan box got opened and administrators began to realize the incentives at play (for the lenders, e.g. most student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy), they saw dollar signs. It's easy to justify tuition hikes when you know most of your students are already taking out loans which they'll basically always get. And since each student is usually only there for about four years, the increases while they're there don't seem significant because their frame of reference is so small. And even if they do realize the highway robbery taking place, what are they gonna do, transfer half their credits to somewhere cheaper and spend even more time in school to finish their degree?

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#395

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

sosuke wrote: post #380

_jal wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salary of full-time faculty at American colleges and universities: 1970-71: $81,798 2018-19: $88,703 Mean salary of American college and university presidents in 1983: $160,640 (2018 dollars). Median compensation of private college and university presidents in 2018: $668,000. Median compensation of public college and university presidents in 2019: $495,808 More, and primary source links: https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyb…

nvm

[deleted]

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#396

Post by wayoutthere » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

merolish wrote: post #209

HWR_14 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just loans, it's COVID. If I were college-age and I were planning on going to college I would certainly do one of two things. I would postpone college until the COVID issues died down -or- I would use the fewer applicants to get into a more prestigious school banking on a better 3 year experience (out of 4) starting in the fall of 2022 and more impressive degree going forward. Either way, I can imagine admit…

I do applicant interviews for my alma mater (MIT). The number of students applying has skyrocketed, and it sounds like it's the same for peer schools. https://thetech.com/2021/03/18/regular-admissions-2025 Tuition has doubled since I went there, but at least they can afford good financial aid for those who can get in.

Yeah I suspect people have wised up to the fact that the alumni base of a program matters more than pretty much anything else. So unless you’re at a prestige program at a prestige school, college probably isn’t going to pay off as well. Thus the piling in to elite universities while overall enrollment drops off.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#397

Post by honkycat » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #71

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

> The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices.

This is partly true. The US also DID use to subsidize more University tuition.

However: Agreed. The loans are dumb. They feed into the issue in exactly the way you describe. They should be interest free as long as you are making regular payments.[1]

> Also, in-state tuition for state schools is much less...

This is so thorny... I have a younger cousin, and what he ended up doing was going to a community college for two years, then transferring. It worked out well for him! But it was a gamble.

When I was in school my parents were very obsessed with me "having the college experience" even though we were much less well-off than they were in uni and were not able to support me financially[0]. I say this to point out: I am not advocating for this. College should not be fun! If it is: Great! Glad you had a good time. But that is not necessarily the reality you should expect.

However: I have noticed a lot of people made a lot of friends in Uni, and those develop into professional relationships later in life.

Additionally, if you are an ambitious person, going to community college has the risk of failing to prepare you for higher level university teaching.

Finally: I am an extremely extroverted person. I found the community aspect of going to class, studying with friends, etc. extremely helpful in my motivation and understanding of the material. I've tried to do the MIT classes and such, but it rarely sticks.

0: Not their fault, not whining. Shit happens!

EDIT:

1: AS A VERY MODERATE ACCOMMODATION. I'm not advocating for this policy as the end-all-be-all, but I feel like this is a very reasonable suggestion.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#398

Post by endisneigh » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #201

endisneigh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how the solution is always to do tech. What about the other things?

Well, the other things are likely not worth it. You can tell because they try to hide outcomes from prospective students. The things that will yield good outcome for an individual all lead with the outcome. The things that don't always lead with some sort of identity-nonsense: "You will be a well-rounded individual" but don't actually show the median example of this well-rounded individual post-degree.

Really? Tech is the only career that’s likely worth it?

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#399

Post by reilly3000 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #307

reilly3000 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>something no one cares about like communications, philosophy, journalism, etc. Excuse me? No one cares about fields that employ 2.8 million workers [BLS.gov 2020] ? No one cares about work that provides information, entertainment, and shapes political views? FYI your doctors, lawyers, and politician's biggest expense line items usually include money going to communications and media professionals. I and many others…

> Read a goddamn book. > [...] to wholly discount its importance is capitalist orthodoxy Touched a nerve, eh? You have no clue what books I've read or how many. I didn't "wholly discount" the importance of so-named classical liberal arts. But there aren't many good reasons for putting one's self into debt to get a degree in such things. Be honest, liberal arts isn't heart surgery. Liberal arts can be learned for free…

> Touched a nerve, eh? That you did heh... I am a pretty ardent advocate for journalism and the people who do it, paid or unpaid. I've also worked in digital advertising and communications, and even spent a semester as an adjunct teaching a mostly vocational course in the same, so I suppose the $1500 they paid me in 2014 makes me a semi-interested party. That said, I've also spent the intervening time with self-directed, mostly free education that has helped me transform into a developer with a Principal Engineer title and I'm all about embracing that form of learning as a general practice.

The ROI for many degrees is abysmal. There's been some really great research on in this area, including my favorite report here: https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7583742/

The worst cases from that data approach -$1M ROI. Ouch. Those institutions deserve to be held to account, they are doing a disservice to their students and society for putting people into such economic peril. The term leach seems to apply. I'll even concede that prescribing classical liberal education for all is somewhat paternalistic, even overly anglo-centric. We can do better. Still, I think education is critical for democracy to be functional and as a society its worth investing in.

We're generally on the same page as far as I can tell. But yes, I will become quite cranky if you call journalism useless :)

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#400

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

lumost wrote: post #132

epistasis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard tales of people with interest rates of 7%+ on student loans, and the official rates are not incredibly low either: https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/interest-r... Any loan that is charging 6.28% interest and also cant be discharged by bankruptcy is just usury with current interest rates.

This Happened to me on loans taken out between ‘07 and ‘10. The liquidity crises meant that banks stopped lending to students, and everyone assumed that interest rates would rise. I got locked into 7.25-8% fixed on roughly 80k in debt which I paid off over the next 10 years. Unfortunately a bout of unemployment in 2010 prevented me from refinancing.

Me too, I’m still stuck with 10k at (now 10.5%) taken out then