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South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

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Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you are totally okay with the government flushing 2 years of your incredibly short life down the drain I reject that that's an even remotely accurate description of anything that has happened, or has any other relevancd to reality. > many places are locking down yet again What places? Unless you are using “locking down” as loosely as you’ve used “battlefield”, that's not actually happening, anywhere. > And they…

Sorry, not gonna play "its not a real lockdown" pedantry with you. I don't care what you call it. Any restriction we made in the last 2 years be it closed small businesses, masks, vaccine mandates, hall passes to go on dog walks, "not allowed to walk on the dry sand, only the wet sand", closed playgrounds, closed schools... all of it... it was all in the name of flattening the curve to build supplies and increase hea…

Words have meanings and connotations.

When you use a dramatic-sounding word like "lockdown", there's an implicit bargain you're making. You get to have a stronger emotional effect on me, and in exchange I get to call bullshit if it turns out that you're using it for something that doesn't justify that stronger emotional effect.

It sounds as if you're calling _every_ restriction anyone imposed on anyone in the name of fighting COVID-19 "lockdown". In which case, I call bullshit. For instance, being required to wear a mask when indoors with other people (I guess this is the sort of thing that the bare word "masks" in your list means): yeah, it kinda sucks, but it is a long way from anything that justifies the term "lockdown".

The same goes for your words about the government (I'm not sure which government, but never mind) "flushing 2 years of your incredibly short life down the drain". I don't know exactly what's happened in your life, nor in the life of anyone else who isn't me; but while lots of things have been worse than usual for the last two years it's a long way short of "flushing my life down the drain". In fact, here are some things that two years of would be (1) much worse than what I have endured for the last two years but also (2) much less bad than "flushing (those years of) my life down the drain". (a) Being out of work. (b) Getting divorced. (c) Having a substantial disability such as deafness or the loss of a limb. (d) Major depressive disorder.

At least one actual underlying point you're making is a cogent one: governments across the world were concerned about their healthcare systems being overwhelmed, they asked or required people to make sacrifices that (as well as protecting the people making the sacrifices) made that less likely, but they didn't take steps to make substantial increases in the capacity of those healthcare systems that would make such sacrifices less necessary in the future.

That's partly because making substantial increases to the capacity of your healthcare system is hard and takes time. Hospitals take time to build. Doctors take time (a lot more than two years) to train. Etc. But, still, it's probably true that one thing we should have been trying to do alongside panic-mode COVID-19 fighting is to make longer-term capacity increases.

And, yes, all those restrictions governments have imposed have costs as well as benefits, and we should be weighing those up and not just assuming we should do everything that has benefits.

But you don't do either of those points any favours by tying them to hyperbolic language for all the things governments have been doing in the short term to try to reduce the spread. Nowhere has been "locked down" for two years, unless you take "locked down" to mean "doing anything at all to try to reduce the spread of COVID-19", and you shouldn't do that because words have meanings and connotations and that isn't what "locked down" means. Some people have indeed suffered terribly, but by and large we have not had two years of our lives "flushed down the drain", unless you take "flushed down the drain" to mean "made a bit worse", which again you shouldn't do because that's not what those words mean.

Say "Wearing masks kinda sucks, and we should actually look at whether the benefits justify the costs" and I'll warmly agree (though I might or might not end up agreeing with you about how the calculation comes out). Say "Working from home kinda sucks for many people and is basically impossible for others, and having everyone do it has severe economic consequences, and we should weigh those up against the benefits and not do it if it's net negative" and I'll warmly agree (though, again, I don't guarantee to agree about how the calculations come out in every particular case). But say "the government is flushing your life down the drain" or "we have been in lockdown for two years" and, no, sorry, I call bullshit. Those things are not true, and when you say them I can't help suspecting motives I can't endorse such as a preference for labelling everything a government does with the most negative labels you can find.

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are obese.

Well, "overweight" by CDCs definition (BMI > 25 == overweight). But there's a strong link between complications from COVID and Obesity. It's a shame nobody wants to make the obese pay for their externalities -- even the people who'd like to make the unvaccinated "pay" in some way turn a blind eye to this issue.

If you want to make "the obese" "pay for their externalities", I do hope you have a fantastic plan in place to break the backs of the Nabiscos of the world who literally-not-figuratively design for habituation and drum their marketing into every place they can.

The situation was not caused by overstressed people going "you know, I really want to be fat".

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#393
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A place where it hit exponential levels with really bad results is here in NY at the beginning. We had no precautions, testing, or vaccines in place yet, and hospitals were overwhelmed. It was honestly a scary time. That was where we started "flattening the curve". Now with vaccines available if there are surges and they are not literally building hospitals on fields like they were near me that is something we have t…

We are currently sitting at at total of over 800,000 COVID deaths in the US and 1,500 COVID deaths per day, which is roughly where it’s been since September 1st. That’s approximately an additional half a million dead people per year. So yes the vaccine has already saved million of lives, but I sure hope that this is not the new normal this winter or we are going to cross 1 million deaths fairly soon.

Based on excess mortality numbers, it seems fairly likely that we're already over a million deaths that would not have happened without COVID19.

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#394
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldnt forget that something like 80% of them were already old people with a variety of health issues.

And all of the young "healthy" people who died had comorbidities like obesity and diabetws or some congenital issues unknown to them.

The most vulnerable “comorbidity” subpopulation rarely mentioned in popular social media are the immunocompromised

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/blog/immunocompromised-...

The title itself suggests the immunocompromised are acknowledged as an overlooked group.

The CDC has some discussion at

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/duration-isola...

From the link above, the immunocompromised are a reservoir for the virus for a longer time, since it takes longer for the body to clear the virus. So certainly worth the extra attention, from an epidemiological standpoint if nothing else.

My sense is the immunocompromised would know the COVID response drill from all the other infectious agents they have to deal with so, maybe, they are more careful anyway, but…

The puzzling thing is (from the Johns Hopkins link) there are 15M immunocompromised in the US.

Which does beg the question: if COVID is truly a superbug, two years on, why aren’t they (the immunocompromised) dead yet?

A death rate of only 6%, over two years, for this highly vulnerable immunocompromised population would explain all the US deaths from COVID.

How can COVID be simultaneously

(1) the Plague of the Century and,

(2) two years on, also leave 94% to 99+% of the most vulnerable alive (depending on your assumption on the percentage of symptomatic/hospitalized/fatal COVID cases who are/were immunocompromised)?

Just another COVID “mystery”? Seems a bit odd.

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#395
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, social distancing is no more realistic for many people than maintaining a healthy diet and exercise routine. My point is that we have tools to stop these diseases, we just view using these tools as worse than getting the disease.

But this contradicts your earlier comment where you attributed it to poor decision making, misinformation, and so on. If one indeed puts greater value on "not indefinitely social distancing" than on "a slightly decreased risk of death or serious complications from Covid", then the decision not to continue social distancing is a good one .

What I meant is that heart disease is largely avoidable for most people through relatively simple / nearly free solutions like good diet and exercise, yet it’s still pervasive as OC pointed out.

I guess “poor decision making” was a misleading phrase on my part because I think I get your point that individuals could put greater value on enjoying the present, future be damned, and who’s to tell them that’s not the best way to live life. Life on average will be shorter, but I guess that’s not fair to project that as a success metric onto other people who might not care as much about their projected lifespan as they do about enjoying some more indulgent foods.

And further to your point, there’s a very reasonable debate about the value of the individual vs. the value of the community in decision making that isn’t universal. So yeah I take back that earlier comment.

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all of the young "healthy" people who died had comorbidities like obesity and diabetws or some congenital issues unknown to them.

The most vulnerable “comorbidity” subpopulation rarely mentioned in popular social media are the immunocompromised https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/blog/immunocompromised-... The title itself suggests the immunocompromised are acknowledged as an overlooked group. The CDC has some discussion at https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/duration-isola... From the link above, the immunocompromised are a reservoi…

Maybe because those of us in that subpopulation aren't treating it by sticking our heads in the sand, and actually doing the stuff that works - not going out, wearing a (good) mask when we must, getting our shots...

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot to unpack but I doubt you are as right as you think you are. For instance in new variant outbreaks there ate usually harsher responses than for known variant outbreaks, so it is very difficult to identity the real infectivity. But more importantly it's well established that diseases that those diseases spread most widely that don't kill rapidly (or that more generally don't have severe symptoms) and th…

I can’t tell what your point is but nothing here seems to contradict anything I said. It’s just some facts about diseases. I didn’t say every one was going to survive omicron. I said the spread was unlikely to be materially higher than its predecessor and likely have a lower negative impact. A disease that spreads twice as fast is unlikely to infect twice as many people (over the long term). A disease that causes few…

Is anyone even seriously claiming that a disease that spreads twice as fast is going to infect twice as many people? As long as the effective R0 of a disease remains greater than 1, it's eventually going to infect the same amount of people — everyone (over the long term). Greater R0 rate just means it spreads faster.

The real concerns about omicron are that: 1) A rapid initial spread will overwhelm the healthcare system and 2) that if its basic R0 rate is sufficiently high, then even after remedial measures are taken, we will still be left with an effective R0 rate above 1 for quite some time.

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#398
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are currently sitting at at total of over 800,000 COVID deaths in the US and 1,500 COVID deaths per day, which is roughly where it’s been since September 1st. That’s approximately an additional half a million dead people per year. So yes the vaccine has already saved million of lives, but I sure hope that this is not the new normal this winter or we are going to cross 1 million deaths fairly soon.

It would be surprising if we didn’t cross 1 million deaths this winter.

Omicron may actually help deaths taper off a bit quicker than otherwise.

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#399
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, not gonna play "its not a real lockdown" pedantry with you. I don't care what you call it. Any restriction we made in the last 2 years be it closed small businesses, masks, vaccine mandates, hall passes to go on dog walks, "not allowed to walk on the dry sand, only the wet sand", closed playgrounds, closed schools... all of it... it was all in the name of flattening the curve to build supplies and increase hea…

Words have meanings and connotations. When you use a dramatic-sounding word like "lockdown", there's an implicit bargain you're making. You get to have a stronger emotional effect on me, and in exchange I get to call bullshit if it turns out that you're using it for something that doesn't justify that stronger emotional effect. It sounds as if you're calling _every_ restriction anyone imposed on anyone in the name of…

> unless you take "flushed down the drain" to mean "made a bit worse", which again you shouldn't do because that's not what those words mean.

It takes a remarkable amount of privilege to say something like this.

We stole peoples proms, first dates, high school dances, drunken college hookups, funerals, weddings, livelihoods, social lives, you name it and we stole it in a failed attempt to “flatten the curve”.

People who minimize or brush away the impact the last two hellish years of our existence are either privileged as fuck or have a pathetic, miserable pre-pandemic life. I hardly know what else to say.

How dare anybody say last two years was “made a bit worse”. Speak for yourself… but you have no right to make that claim of others. These last two years seriously fucked my shit up and I’m hardly the minority. Screw people who gaslight us by saying “made a bit worse”.

Re: South Africa’s omicron coronavirus outbreak subsides as fast as it grew

#400

I’ve been tanking some downvotes for the past few days for saying this. Disease spread is only exponential for a brief initial period. It is not a good mental or even general model for how disease spreads. We have two years of observational covid data that shows this to be true. Spread slows down rapidly long before reaching 100%. People hear “5x as infectious” and reason that due to the nature of exponential models,…

> it’s entirely believable to say that omicron could go on to infect fewer people than delta due to the past two years of vaccination and immunity and die off

While this does appear plausible, doesn't this depend to some degree on what exactly is the immunity conferred by vaccination or past infection? If vaccines and past infections are effective against severity of case/symptoms but ineffective against new/re-infection, then you could still see greater numbers with omicron than even with delta. No?

Still not forever exponential, of course.

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