President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#391

Post by Bayesian_bro » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:32 PM UTC

clavicat wrote: post #365

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

This is some asinine cultural analysis, as if entire cultures can be reduced to the embrace of moral philosophies. You could just have easily described China as harboring a deontological commitment to social harmony and deference to authority, or America as being consequentialist in its embrace of freedom as the approach most conducive to happiness and opposed to tyranny. Both are caricatures, of course. A problem I’…

This logic works on the average. There are plenty of nuances between the two countries. This is my reduced experience from spending lots of time in China from the early 2000's.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#392

Post by colinmhayes » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:32 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #255

colinmhayes wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely disagree with your portrayal of consequentialism. Freedom absolutely provides utility, and allowing the government to disappear people who disagree with it is in no way a path to maximizing utility.

I don't think you're down in the weeds enough. China does have freedom to a degree. Obviously there's lots of ways where they have zero freedom also. But it certainly looks like the CCP is attempting to maximize freedom where it provides utility and minimize it where it hurts their goals or prosperity. I vehemently disagree with that stance, but I do want acknowledge the CCP's actual stance.

Disappearing people who accuse the government/government officials of wrongdoing will never maximize utility.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#393

Post by dmix » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

For those unfamiliar with the story here’s a short summary from his Change petition:

> Zhihao Kong, a student at Purdue University, posted a letter online in 2020 commemorating the victims of the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre. Shortly after he received a call from his parents, back home in China, saying they had been contacted by China's Ministry of State Security—the department responsible for national intelligence and managing domestic dissidents. Kong's parents told him the Ministry officers said he needed to cease his activism or he and his family would face trouble with the Chinese government. Other Chinese students at Purdue then began harassing Kong and threatening to report him to the Chinese government for his activism, which could potentially endanger both his life and the lives of his family.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#394

Post by r3trohack3r » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:34 PM UTC

sschueller wrote: post #248

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? The time I spend in the US I had the feeling that you have more of a pseudo freedom than actual freedom. Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to d…

I think what I mean by “freedom” is that “citizens” are a branch of government. Freedom is that we’ve decided the citizens are the ruling class.

To oversimplify quite a bite: As a citizen of the United States, and Arizona, I’m allowed to get together with a group of citizens, draft law, and bring it to vote during the next election.

As long as it’s constitutionally valid, and we get a majority vote, it becomes law.

Several cities have changed their ballot box from First Past The Post to Ranked Choice Voting through citizen lead initiatives. Ending the full prohibition on Marijuana in my state was a citizen initiative.

I’m sure they exist - but I don’t know of other countries that have this kind of freedom.

We’ve gotten it wrong in places (gerrymandering is a big one) - but we’ve been one piece of citizen lead legislation away from improving it for a long time. And that gives me hope.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#395

Post by mensetmanusman » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

yholio wrote: post #198

It's a very weak response from Purdue. Zhihao Kong was bullied and followed around on campus for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen masacre. He was called a CIA agent by fellow Purdue students and was reported to the Chinese state, who attempted to silence him by forcefully leaning on his family in Hong Kong. The identities of the bullies is well known and the extent of abuse is borderline criminal. There sho…

The administration can’t ban these students because they need the money from these students to keep their jobs.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#396

Post by montblanc » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Not everything is measured by economic success. Liberal democracy is a value in of itself not just for financial gain. Could be that the Chinese system is better economically, who knows. But to me it sounds very alien to live there - I wouldn't want to. They don't align with most of my values. Now, present America which is fast becoming eaten by radicals may also become not aligned with my values at some point (at that point Europe will be the last standing), but for now it's better for people who appreciate liberal democracy.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#397

Post by dmix » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

oxfeed65261 wrote: post #381

yholio wrote: post #198

It's a very weak response from Purdue. Zhihao Kong was bullied and followed around on campus for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen masacre. He was called a CIA agent by fellow Purdue students and was reported to the Chinese state, who attempted to silence him by forcefully leaning on his family in Hong Kong. The identities of the bullies is well known and the extent of abuse is borderline criminal. There sho…

Perdue President Mitch Daniels said “Those seeking to deny those rights to others, let alone to collude with foreign governments in repressing them, will need to pursue their education elsewhere,” but there is no indication that the students have been expelled. The statement is bizarre and nonsensical if the students are not expelled.

It also sounds like they’d need proof they colluded with a foreign entity which is a very high bar.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#398

Post by hitpointdrew » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

DFHippie wrote: post #303

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? This is a legitimate comparison between the CCP and the government of Oklahoma. It is a bad comparison in terms of responses. China fears and represses discussion of the Tiananmen Square massacre. In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience.

> In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience. Well, some do. The anti-CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that. Do you suppose they'll be teaching about the Tulsa Race Massacre in Oklahoma high schools in the near future? ETA I think people were taking me the wrong way. I added "anti-" above. The brouhaha is all the people trying to prevent their kids from hearing anything in…

Omitting something from a curriculum is one thing.

Attempting to scrub it from the internet and all of human consciousness is a whole new level of tyranny.

If I google "Tulsa Race Massacre" I immediately get results and information. Try searching for "Tiananmen square massacre" in China and see what kind of results you get.

One is subjectively more egregious than the other. There isn't even a real comparison here.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#399

Post by cloverich » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #359

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't some kids bullying another kid. These are adults representing a national government. This is a nation bullying someone inside the United States for exercising free speech. The message needs to be received in Beijing, not merely Indiana.

Showing them a kindness that they wouldn't receive back home might break through to them, or it might not. The situation should definitely carry gravity and have consequences for repeat offenses. I think a bigger problem is two-fold: 1) Universities are addicted to Chinese student tuition funds, and they don't want to rock the boat. I doubt they care as much about the students themselves. My university totally half a…

It is kind of interesting. At my college, we had large batches of students from (Mexican) migrant workers in our dorms. With very few exceptions the majority of two person dorms were 1:1 matching one of them with a second generation (and onwards) citizen. I thought it was a great way to expose all of us to both integration and diversity. It wasn't smooth for everyone of course, yet I thought it was a good balance of culturally jarring experiences, while still providing close proximity to people from the same background (e.g. several migrant worker kids in same hall still). I haven't really thought much about that since College but kind of assumed most places did something similar. (We also had specific classes that highlighted migrant worker issues / history).

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#400

Post by pc86 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

rnotaro wrote: post #86

pc86 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless Purdue plans on opening a campus within the EU, they don't have to pay any of them. Not much of a risk, right?

I have not a deep knowledge of GDPR but wouldn't their study abroad / student exchanges programs with universities from Europe be considered like doing business in Europe?

This is an excellent point I hadn't considered. You're probably right.