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Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#391

Post by JimDabell »

hunterb123 wrote: post #388
JimDabell wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right from the very top of your source: > JSX is an XML-like syntax extension to ECMAScript without any defined semantics. It's NOT intended to be implemented by engines or browsers. It's NOT a proposal to incorporate JSX into the ECMAScript spec itself. It's intended to be used by various preprocessors (transpilers) to transform these tokens into standard ECMAScript. Further down: > Why not just use that instead of…

We're splitting hairs now. It's an extension of the JS spec. Once a parser adds this grammar it is JS. It's syntactical sugar, unlike template syntax #if, ng-if, etc. Your argument is it's not part of the current Ecmascript spec, I never said it was, but if a parser or engine adds these two new PrimaryExpressions and attributes, it is JS. The entire point is JSX extends JS to allow templating via nested JS functions…

We’re not splitting hairs. It is, quite literally, not JavaScript in a fundamental way.

If you want to go around telling people it’s a non-standard extension to JavaScript or if you want to go around telling people it’s a superset of JavaScript, then by all means do that. But it is simply not JavaScript. Why do you insist on saying otherwise? All that does is start completely pointless arguments. What do you gain from insisting it is JavaScript when it isn’t?

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#392

Post by vgel »

dceddia wrote: post #301
vgel wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a mailing list I can toss my email on for when this is available on Linux? Honestly I was ready to buy it instantly before I saw the platform limitation, but it would be even better if it could run some basic filters like removing pops and de-essing, which I always struggle to get working right in Audacity (I have a screenshot saved of my filter curve because Audacity doesn't save it, it's so stupid).

It's not Linux-specific but you can sign up to hear about the Windows one (click the "Get Notified" button on the home page) and I'll let everyone know if/when there's a Linux version. Fair warning I haven't even tried getting it to run on Linux yet... but I've been meaning to try it out, if only for the profiling and debugging tools! (rr looks really cool!) In theory it runs everywhere because Electron, but my gut s…

Linux packaging can definitely be confusing -- as a user I definitely prefer something like an AppImage for a program like this, which should be easy enough to provide. I wouldn't worry about making distribution specific deb and rpm packages, personally.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#393

Post by kall »

ratww wrote: post #349
danny_taco wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you, and I've yet to see a compelling argument against this. I've been doing this since the rise of the SPA, all the way from vanilla, jQuery, Backbone, Angular 1.0, Ember and React and after reading your comment all I can think of is "great, we're going back to handlebars templating again". There is no net-gain in re-inventing the wheel. It just becomes yet another thing to master to stay rel…

The youngest framework of your list is 8 years old already. Svelte itself is gonna be 5 years old in a couple weeks, and there's absolutely no need to pick it up right now. The meme that there are new frontends daily is extremely tired and has been totally false for several years now. Also the only thing those baseless complaints achieve are flamewars and shitting in other people's work.

We moved on. Now there is a new javascript build tool written in a faster language daily (and I love them all).

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#394

Post by leerob »

sholladay wrote: post #315

Rich Harris has done a lot of great work. Until esbuild came along, Rollup was the only sane JS bundler for those of us who can’t stand Webpack. Svelte has some interesting concepts, albeit I am planning to stay with React. His code is always interesting to read. Then there’s Vercel. I was a big advocate for them years ago, back when they were Zeit. I used them in production at multiple companies and I contributed to…

Hey, Lee from Vercel. I'm sorry you had a bad experience here. If you want to email lee @ vercel, I'd love to hear what we could have done better.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#395

Post by hunterb123 »

JimDabell wrote: post #391
hunterb123 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're splitting hairs now. It's an extension of the JS spec. Once a parser adds this grammar it is JS. It's syntactical sugar, unlike template syntax #if, ng-if, etc. Your argument is it's not part of the current Ecmascript spec, I never said it was, but if a parser or engine adds these two new PrimaryExpressions and attributes, it is JS. The entire point is JSX extends JS to allow templating via nested JS functions…

We’re not splitting hairs. It is, quite literally, not JavaScript in a fundamental way. If you want to go around telling people it’s a non-standard extension to JavaScript or if you want to go around telling people it’s a superset of JavaScript, then by all means do that. But it is simply not JavaScript . Why do you insist on saying otherwise? All that does is start completely pointless arguments. What do you gain fr…

I think you're getting a little too worked up.

The point is this small extension to JS grammar lets you do templating with normal JS, instead of #for you can use .forEach, .map and other array methods.

You can use JS instead of replacing tokens in a template.

It's not a superset of JS, that's not accurate, it's an extension of the spec.

I hope the JSX spec is added to the standard sometime to stop this stupid debate.

Until you realize what JSX is you don't realize the full potential it has over templates.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#396

Post by kall »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #292
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

The problem with each of these frameworks is that they make the mistake of surfacing the underlying standards like HTML and the DOM. This is why they look remarkably similar and can only possibly be incrementally better, at best. HTML and the DOM are still essentially modeled on static documents. Building apps that deal directly with these standards is an impedance mismatch that, remarkably, people keep trying to sol…

What would that look like for you? Something like SwiftUI or Flutter (which feel React inspired) or a totally different thing?

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#397

Post by tflinton »

cphoover wrote: post #231
RoboticWater wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the use cases I deal with on a regular basis, Svelte looks more like vanilla HTML/JS than any equivalent React code. And the reason these things change is because that's what needed changing . One of the topline features of Svelte is that is has less boilerplate than React, and it achieves that quite handily. Unless you're criticizing particular constructs in Svelte that are unjustifiably different, I don't t…

What how can you say that??? {myItems.map({id, title}) => {title} } vs... svelte {#each myItems as item} {item.title} {/each} One is literally just javascript and html the other is an entirely different template language. You might say... JSX is not HTML... well it's very very similar... If you know HTML you JSX is very intuitive.

Neither of those are JavaScript..

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#398

Post by veidelis »

JimDabell wrote: post #378
dissent wrote: post #355

I have recently joined a team that had invested in Svelte. I had previous experience in Angular and React. I was happy with React, but I decided to drink the koolaid and go all-in and do my best with Svelte. 6 months later, we're moving to React. It is partly because our Svelte code was messy enough to warrant a rewrite, and partly because we wanted to leverage the React ecosystem in that rewrite. It was also partly…

> - Special syntax for reactivity is not javascript > - I find the javascript-native flexibility of JSX far more expressive than any custom templating These are odd points to combine – JSX is special syntax not JavaScript as well.

Sure, but it maps 100% to an expected JS syntax and improves readability (subjective). From {children} To React.createElement("div", { attr1: "str" }, children) Custom templating is not like that.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#399

Post by jeswin »

FractalHQ wrote: post #244
tekkk wrote: post #29

Wow, this should be great news for Svelte and SvelteKit! Hopefully with Vercel's backing these projects will fly off. Having worked with React for about 5 years (with a project in Vue in-between) and now having dabbled with Svelte, there is just something more appealing working with less higher-level abstractions. Sure with large apps React does have its benefits and its ecosystem is larger by a good amount. But ther…

> ecosystem is larger by a good amount. Svelte’s ecosystem is, in practice, actually much larger than React and any other framework because Vanilla JS works out of the box without framework specific wrappers. So just about any JavaScript package can be imported into a Svelte file and used without hassle.

> So just about any JavaScript package can be imported into a Svelte file and used without hassle.

But you can import any package into React (or any other framework) as well.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#400

Post by aogaili »

aogaili wrote: post #223

Personally I have mixed feeling about this. I guess I'm not a fan of seeing investors money expand it's control over the open source ecosystem. I like open source because it empower the little guys. But I don't expect others to share my values and perspective and perhaps Rich Harris turns out to be a robinhood. Why not doing something like the creator of Vue? With that said I look forward to see what comes out of the…

People downvoting...I've bootstrapped my own business so I can speak my mind freely and don't mind being disliked, as long as my customers like my work.

Now for today's topic:

1) life 101: nobody gives you money for nothing

2) If they give you 5% they will act as if they have given you 90%, it will happen gradually

3) Vercel is seeking monopoly over front-end deployment using investors money and buying open source contributors, of all the major frameworks, they would have done the same with ReactJS and Vue if they could and they will try doing it with any framework that gains momentum. It is a fine strategy, not my cup of tea.

4) I'd rather support bootstrapped business and solo developers

5) I personally wonder how someone with the portfolio of Rich Harris couldn't manage to get sufficient sponsorship to go full-time given how much value he has generated to the community, I think this is something open source community need to tackle, perhaps crypto can help contributors make money earning easier? How about 1 token for each download, fork or install something like that that would help open source contributors generate money just by creating value...something is really broken here and I think there is a room to innovate with micropayments, I mean we know the likes, forks, issues, we have the entire repo content, we have the history of the contributors, given all the fuss about crypto, I wonder why haven't we seen anything in that direction yet, am I missing something? I think monetization of open source should be built within the platform (Github or some modern alternative), with different options on how contributors can run their content creation business. They can choose to give it free, free up to a point, or charge from day one, it is still open source, etc. Lots of room for innovation.

6) Many people share my mindset, but afraid to speak out, so here it, is plain and simple.

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