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CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

calyxos.org

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Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#391

Post by strcat »

kelnos wrote: post #360
dyndos wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the GrapheneOS developer has indicated they are working on getting the Google Play Services apps to run sandboxed like normal apps, without extensive system permissions. This could be quite promising.

Oh wow, this is actually amazing. I'm really impressed with the work the GrapheneOS folks are doing. Ah, damn, it looks like they've dropped support for the Pixel 2. I have a Pixel 4 as my daily driver, but I'd prefer to try it first on a phone I don't use all the time. Ah well. Perhaps the 4 will still be supported whenever I get my next phone :) Some non-Twitter prose about the Play Services support (though it does…

You can still download the Pixel 2 images via getting the version from https://releases.grapheneos.org/walleye-testing if you really want to use it. There may be a final extended support release, but it's very insecure at this point and we won't be making those extended support releases for much longer.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#392

Post by sphinxcdi »

spinax wrote: post #68
jefftk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry! I understood you to be saying that the definition of FOSS includes no ads or trackers, and I wanted to make sure no one was misled by that. Additionally, as you say, the F-droid repository does contain apps with those properties; they're labeled, not excluded.

Trivia: by default (unless it has changed upstream), the F-Droid app defaults to "Include anti-feature apps: Off" in the Settings. The user must go in there and manually opt-in to see all the anti-feature apps on the mobile client.

It doesn't actually hide apps with "anti-features", you can still see them by default. The only thing it does is hide the description and install button of apps with "anti-features" in the search screen. It seems like a half-baked feature.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#393

Post by [deleted] »

busymom0 wrote: post #349
danvittegleo wrote: post #347

CalyxOS is an awesome project. I have worked with the lead developer a bit over the past few years and it's been such a pleasure. We share some bits of code between our projects here: https://github.com/AOSPAlliance . If anyone is interested in building their own custom android OS in the cloud (AWS) with same ability to lock your bootloader like CalyxOS, you can checkout my project I've been maintaining for a few yea…

How expensive is it to build android in the cloud? And how are the build times? Is it possible to do it on a local Mac mini instead or will that take too long to build?

[deleted]

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#394

Post by [deleted] »

busymom0 wrote: post #349
danvittegleo wrote: post #347

CalyxOS is an awesome project. I have worked with the lead developer a bit over the past few years and it's been such a pleasure. We share some bits of code between our projects here: https://github.com/AOSPAlliance . If anyone is interested in building their own custom android OS in the cloud (AWS) with same ability to lock your bootloader like CalyxOS, you can checkout my project I've been maintaining for a few yea…

How expensive is it to build android in the cloud? And how are the build times? Is it possible to do it on a local Mac mini instead or will that take too long to build?

[deleted]

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#395

Post by strcat »

commoner wrote: post #329
strcat wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calyx has more focus on functionality and privacy rather than security. That's not true. GrapheneOS is heavily focused on privacy and offers much better privacy than CalyxOS. See https://grapheneos.org/features for the privacy and security features offered beyond AOSP. Unlike CalyxOS, we aren't listing AOSP features as our own. CalyxOS has a leaky firewall which apps can bypass and a leaky VPN tethering implementat…

While I really appreciate your work on GrapheneOS (and I will be checking out the sandboxed Google Play Services feature), I don't think it's very good form to heavily promote your OS in a discussion about a different OS, especially in such an adversarial way. There's room in the FOSS space for both GrapheneOS and CalyxOS.

Please look at the comments being replied to from that user in this thread. They're spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS in order to promote CalyxOS. This isn't something isolated but rather than community is highly hostile towards our project and has been heavily involved in harassment of our developers, raids on our community and coordinated spreading of misinformation. Every time GrapheneOS or CalyxOS is mentioned, the CalyxOS community and project are there pretending GrapheneOS doesn't care about privacy and functionality/usability. We're only responding to the comments where this is being done. We didn't jump into this thread but rather they're choosing to attack us and bring us into it.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#396

Post by strcat »

scns wrote: post #264
securitypunk wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who has managed a product security program will tell you that's it's impossible for small groups to keep up with the complexity and attack surface of products like android. From a consumer perspective, going with A and trusting the company is by far the safest option.

Sorry to be a pedantic but: Two People created CopperheadOS, one of them now works on GrapheneOS. The security mitigations developed for those were incorporated upstream into Android, decreasing the attack surface.

> Two People created CopperheadOS, one of them now works on GrapheneOS.

No, that's not true. GrapheneOS is the continuation of the project by the original development team. There aren't any developers who stuck with Copperhead. The project was created 1 year before Copperhead existed as a company.

https://grapheneos.org/history

> The security mitigations developed for those were incorporated upstream into Android, decreasing the attack surface.

https://grapheneos.org/features is a list of the current features differentiating it from AOSP. It doesn't list the many things we've gotten into upstream projects, since they aren't differences anymore.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#397

Post by summm »

luca020400 wrote: post #380
summm wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would having root itself rule out secure boot? It's just that they refuse to offer root themselves, and only as a result of that refusal one has to use system modifications to gain root. In a sense this is the opposite of your claim: they do explicitly not cater to root users.

We cater the normal user. And what the hell? Root with verified boot? That's like having the most secure castle while leaving the door open for anyone, you can't have both worlds. Note: our root implementation was apparently affected by some vulnerabilities ( never disclosed to us ), meaning I tried to lower the attack surface to minimum, but not knowing I did anything helpful we just couldn't leave it there.

Root doesn't mean you give root permissions to any dumb app. I implied proper permission management and authorization, of course.

Then it's just like a secure castle where the user can go into all of the rooms, to some with a special key. You don't have to go into those rooms, but you have the option to at any time. And, depending on the implementation, you may change the special room, but if you return after the next reboot, it will be reverted back.

Actually, the castle analogy goes further: Unfortunately, many seem to interpret "verified boot" and "most secure" as "protects the dumbest user from shooting themselves in the foot on purpose by locking them into that castle. That is exactly where the recent apple scandal is coming from: The user is subservient to the OS vendor, and the OS vendor can abuse the user as they please.

Security is very important. Why? In order to not be exploited by strangers (criminals, spys...) against my interests. If security enables exploitation against my interests (by whomever, be it the OS vendor, the movie industry, or the government), it is not the security I want. This one OS is different than all the other evil ones? That's what Apple said before...

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#398

Post by summm »

rchaud wrote: post #103

It's ironic that the only devices this can be installed on are Google phones and one Xiaomi phone.

Even with the most secure alternative Android, you always have blobs from the original manufacturer that you have to use for some hardware-related critical functionality. And of course, the baseband that usually has full access to device's memory using DMA. That's where the backdoors go, I'd suspect. In this regard I'd trust Xiaomi way less than Google.

However, Google phones have been subpar for a long time. E.g. the storage was too small and non-extendable. Makes sense from a Google point of view, as you're supposed to store everything into their cloud. But not well suitable for offline-first and privacy-first.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#399

Post by [deleted] »

strcat wrote: post #395
commoner wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I really appreciate your work on GrapheneOS (and I will be checking out the sandboxed Google Play Services feature), I don't think it's very good form to heavily promote your OS in a discussion about a different OS, especially in such an adversarial way. There's room in the FOSS space for both GrapheneOS and CalyxOS.

Please look at the comments being replied to from that user in this thread. They're spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS in order to promote CalyxOS. This isn't something isolated but rather than community is highly hostile towards our project and has been heavily involved in harassment of our developers, raids on our community and coordinated spreading of misinformation. Every time GrapheneOS or CalyxOS is ment…

[deleted]

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#400

Post by commoner »

strcat wrote: post #395
commoner wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I really appreciate your work on GrapheneOS (and I will be checking out the sandboxed Google Play Services feature), I don't think it's very good form to heavily promote your OS in a discussion about a different OS, especially in such an adversarial way. There's room in the FOSS space for both GrapheneOS and CalyxOS.

Please look at the comments being replied to from that user in this thread. They're spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS in order to promote CalyxOS. This isn't something isolated but rather than community is highly hostile towards our project and has been heavily involved in harassment of our developers, raids on our community and coordinated spreading of misinformation. Every time GrapheneOS or CalyxOS is ment…

This looks like a messy dispute, so I'm not going to step in. The FOSS community is outnumbered by those who prefer closed source software, and it's a shame to see infighting between two projects that, despite their differences, both counter the Google/Apple duopoly on mobile device platforms. I hope the GrapheneOS and CalyxOS communities can find a way to reconcile.
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