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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#391

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

bwb wrote: post #381
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We barely trust 'our' own representatives and you want us to trust those other guys? In all seriousness, the issue is trust. And I have no idea how we could possibly get there as a human kind.

I trust my reps to be human, and I trust anyone else to be human as that is what they all are :) It might take a hundred or a thousand years, but that is where I'd like to see us go. And, it seems like that is where we are going given the global nature of business. Do you think people working at FB or Google who are working with people in 15+ countries don't realize how similar we all are? And, that this entire conce…

I like that optimism and am hoping.

To your point:

But what kind of human are they? Do they share belief A? Do they use position B on Tuesdays? Do they not associate with Cs? Do they have righteous gene D?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#392

Post by owisd »

bobthechef wrote: post #296
pell wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

> he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the media, academia This is precisely where I claim you've gone wrong. > NGOs NGOs are not democratic institutions per se. NGOs can be incredibly detrimental to societies, whether intentionally or through incompetence, and can be used by billionaires to social engineer societies as they see fit. > the media The media are not democrati…

Institutions like that play an important role in democracy precisely because they can hold views opposing the mainstream and act as a moderating force even if they themselves aren’t ‘democratic’. The populist idea that institutions should kowtow to some Rousseauian ‘will of the people’ ideal can be damaging to democracy because it’s easy for someone like Orban to claim to speak for ‘the people’, so when institutions have to fall in line with ‘the people’ really they’re falling in line with Orban, and then you’ve not got a democracy.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#393

Post by andrepd »

yuvalr1 wrote: post #366
andrepd wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; It's easy to see that it's in my interest to kill a woman on an unlit street and nick her purse. What kind of argument is this?? It's especially aggravating since so much propaganda comes out touting Israel as a democracy and decrying the savage Palestinians for being a dictatorship.

But Israel is a democracy and the Palestinians didn't have elections for 15 years already. These are facts, not propaganda.

But apparently they (Nethanyahu and co) do not have problems with supporting dictatorships where it suits them, nor of subverting their own democracy. That is the point I'm making.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#394

Post by krzyk »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #243
krzyk wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Issue is that when they joining EU there was no mention of large influx of immigrants to the country. There is also a difference when you get immigrants of somehow similar culture vs large amount of immigrants from one that is completely different (and it being the same as ISIS, doesn't help, how one can differentiate infiltrator from legitimate refugee?). It is all good if amount of immigrants is not large influx. B…

I’m not from Hungary or Poland so can you please explain to me why Hungary and Poland seem uniquely inundated by refugees and apparently terrorists? Are there terrorist attacks happening from refugees regularly in Hungary and Poland? Why are they special, or are other EU countries just getting terrorist attacks and are ok with it? I’m genuinely asking because looking at the map, neither Hungary nor Poland are the fir…

> I’m genuinely asking because looking at the map, neither Hungary nor Poland are the first stop for a middle eastern refugee, and I have no idea where the statement of infiltrator from ISIS comes from because I haven’t heard of an uptick of terrorism in either country.

People are more reluctant to let immigrants from too foreign culture in, e.g. Poland let in > 1M of Ukrainian immigrants (they are from similar culture as Poland) during last few years. Those assimilate easily.

Also, people are afraid of the unknown. You force that on them, they will object -> vote for those that will block that. There is no way around that.

This happens more in places that are more religious and for example Poland is, if you let in people from different (also religious) culture you create a clash.

I think it would be easier for Czech, where there are few religious citizens.

As for terrorists. People watch TV -> see that ISIS is cutting heads -> EU wants to import people from exact same region into your country. Many people objected to that, even those less nationalist.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#395

Post by bwb »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #242
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

> Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? I can think of a few reasons. - It would erase culture, a slow process already ongoing. National identity, regional culture, etc would all go. - You'd have to reconcile the differences in rules, culture and law. Take drugs; the Netherlands is liberal with soft drugs, Portugal is more liberal with hard drugs, other countries still…

It wouldn't erase culture in anyway... just help us remember we are all earthlings. You can still be french, french-basque, etc etc.

Abolishing nations is totally feasible, what it is replaced with is just democracy on a local to global level.

It will take time but I have high hopes it will get there.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#396

Post by roenxi »

cranekam wrote: post #344
roenxi wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't the UK's energy availability basically collapsed? I keep an eye on the basic stats [0] and it looked like the situation was pretty grim leading up to Brexit. Someone is really hurting. Either production is collapsing and people are losing good jobs, or it is directly going to result in household pain. I suppose it would surprise me if 20% of a country's electricity can disappear, almost half its primary energy…

Can you explain what "energy availability" means in this context? My family lives in the UK and the lights work and the gad flows. Prices increase over time (above inflation, IIRC) but it still works, so I assume you're referring to some other meaning I don't yet know about.

The amount of energy is lower - the UK is producing much less, electricity use has declined and (although it isn't strictly certain) that is suggestive evidence that if you tallied up all the Joules consumed in the UK then there are less of them in 2016 than 2010.

If there are less Joules and more people, some people must - by mathematical necessity - be consuming less of them. If your family can still afford to consume the same amount then maybe someone else on the margins is really being pushed.

That is a pretty decent reason for why a large number of people might be getting desperate for political change. It is a stronger explanation than some variant of the more common "maybe they are just really confused and/or hateful and/or unexpectedly stupid". People don't read economic stats but they'll notice if 20% of their electricity goes away.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#397

Post by krzyk »

enriquto wrote: post #291
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not from Hungary or Poland so can you please explain to me why Hungary and Poland seem uniquely inundated by refugees and apparently terrorists? Are there terrorist attacks happening from refugees regularly in Hungary and Poland? Why are they special, or are other EU countries just getting terrorist attacks and are ok with it? I’m genuinely asking because looking at the map, neither Hungary nor Poland are the fir…

they will answer that they don't have terror attacks precisely because they don't let terrorists in (unlike those pesky french and germans)

Well, don't you see it as one of the reasons?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#398

Post by nix23 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #365
_hzrk wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Globalism is inevitable, you cannot stop it. You should rather get used to it. The fact that you get anxious by ideas penetrating your culture means that globalisation works. It is like my Romanian grandfather telling me how bankers should have been punished in 2008. Which would have never and it will never happen because that's how the world works. The alternatives are far too costly and our global capitalism does n…

Only death is inevitable and even that is not that certain. I am saying this as a person, who likes the science fiction level of species level organization ( vs geographical nation-state ), where we pay with universal credits and basically have few of the issues inherited from the olden days of 2021. But I dream.

Yeah just hope your not a belter ;)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#399

Post by nicoburns »

roenxi wrote: post #396
cranekam wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain what "energy availability" means in this context? My family lives in the UK and the lights work and the gad flows. Prices increase over time (above inflation, IIRC) but it still works, so I assume you're referring to some other meaning I don't yet know about.

The amount of energy is lower - the UK is producing much less, electricity use has declined and (although it isn't strictly certain) that is suggestive evidence that if you tallied up all the Joules consumed in the UK then there are less of them in 2016 than 2010. If there are less Joules and more people, some people must - by mathematical necessity - be consuming less of them. If your family can still afford to cons…

I live in the UK, and I don't think energy has anything to do with it. We're producing less electricity because we're consuming less electrcity, which is mostly due to more energy efficient appliances and decreasing industrial usage isn't impacting lifestyles.

If you want to point to something, I'd look towards massively inflated house prices (almost 10x over 30 years in some places), and stagnating real wages.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#400

Post by bwb »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #391
bwb wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I trust my reps to be human, and I trust anyone else to be human as that is what they all are :) It might take a hundred or a thousand years, but that is where I'd like to see us go. And, it seems like that is where we are going given the global nature of business. Do you think people working at FB or Google who are working with people in 15+ countries don't realize how similar we all are? And, that this entire conce…

I like that optimism and am hoping. To your point: But what kind of human are they? Do they share belief A? Do they use position B on Tuesdays? Do they not associate with Cs? Do they have righteous gene D?

Ya agreed, it is going to take some time but a good place to aim for :)

I'd like to see a shared believe that we are all human beings who are not that different in the grand scheme of things. And that everyone is worth a base level of respect. That seems like a good place to aim for.

And... still thinking on this one... but I think that the quickest way to lose that base level of respect is if you are someone who advocates that someone else is not worthy of that base level of respect. I am blown away by how many people define themselves by who they hate/dislike/don't-understand, and somehow that becomes a rally cry for their identity. It is a weird mentality.

The conflict between being in society and an individual is a hard one. I always like to imagine a global system where you opt into a legal system / social contract of your choice. I'll take Shite law, or I'll take the American society contract, or I'll take Chinese CCP contract, or Nordic contract....

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