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Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

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Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#391

Post by madengr »

inetknght wrote: post #164
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

Minimum wage was never intended to cover all the above, and it never has. Minimum wage is for teenagers working after school or weekends, or students with no (yet) marketable skills.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#392

Post by humanrebar »

cjohnson318 wrote: post #381
humanrebar wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

> A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". Aren't they though? You don't get a discount on rent because you're not 20 yet, and being under 20 doesn't mean you have rich parents that can subsidize your lifestyle.

I'm not arguing for low wages. But it's dishonest to conflate household income and individual salary.

More specifically, having a roommate or two or living with some family unit is fairly normal at that age. So other income needs to be accounted for to make that semantic argument stick.

Of course not everyone can have employed housemates. But even in those cases, it's not clear to me that banning 16 year olds from working those jobs helps all those 16 year olds. It seems likely that many of them end up worse off.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#393

Post by bradlys »

luckylion wrote: post #225
bradlys wrote: post #223

I find this is true even within software. There is a large complaint about not enough engineers. There are enough engineers - it’s just that you won’t pay enough for them for the given locale! If every startup started compensating like FAANG, they’d have no trouble finding talent. Personally, I’ve had to go through this recently where I received 5 job offers. All well below what I’d consider “market” rate. They were…

> If every startup started compensating like FAANG, they’d have no trouble finding talent. That can't work. Current talent is a zero-sum game. You offer more, you get someone to switch over to you, somebody else offers more still and takes that person from you. You might attract more future talent to the industry by offering more, but since software developers already make 2-10 times the average, I doubt that people…

A lot of people I know who stop being software engineers do it because they found something more profitable. (Management, executive track, founding their own company, etc.) Part of the reason is that salary progression after the first 10 years is generally flat for IC level. Yet, it continues almost indefinitely for other tracks or roles related to software.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#394

Post by medium_burrito »

brightball wrote: post #161
phillipcarter wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so it creates a disincentive to work This framing can make it come off as though the wages were fair to begin with. The consensus seems to be that they were never fair. And people in the US are largely tired of the government giving handouts to businesses over people. It's time for those who reaped disproportional benefits over the past 40 years to eat some costs instead.

> This framing can make it come off as though the wages were fair to begin with. This framing passes the buck for inflation from the government onto businesses that have no control over it whatsoever. When the money you have buys less and less, the wages suddenly become less and less "fair" without the employer doing anything differently. Who's to say that their business has increased enough to support the higher wag…

Yeah, strongly agree on automation/export of jobs.

I imagine the political class will of course make it illegal to automate them!

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#395

Post by rufus_foreman »

throwaway1777 wrote: post #97
leetcrew wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's pretty common for the second shift to start right around the time highschool gets out. or if it doesn't, the manager might be flexible. dinner rush doesn't usually start until 6:00 or so. there's also the weekend. obviously highschoolers are not filling 100% of entry-level food service jobs, but they make up a pretty good chunk of these workers along with some college kids. it's a good option for someone who has…

Except it’s not really a good option. Maybe a high schooler should be focusing on school.

I worked minimum wage jobs when I was 16, there were 14 year old kids working at the same jobs. It wasn't like the kids who didn't work spent their after school time focusing on school. From what I recall, they mostly spent their time dropping by the fast food place to make fun of how stupid we looked in our fast food place uniforms.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#396

Post by dmitriid »

fighterpilot wrote: post #369
dmitriid wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yeah. You can always look at how Europe is empty and has very few, if any, restaurants with their minimum wages and healthcare. Oh wait...

I said that it would reduce demand, not that it would eliminate it.

Has it reduced demand in Europe?

In general. Americans regularly have deep-rooted fears about giving fellow humans a chance at a decent life. Are any of those fears substantiated?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#397

Post by richardjennings »

mywittyname wrote: post #20

I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. There are a lot of jobs where your net pay is below zero, long term, when you factor in the external costs associated with working, such as needing transportation. These jobs have been propped up by debt. It looks like the pandemic has put and end to this. Transportation costs have skyrocketed to such a degree that it's basically impossible for a poor person…

"and now the exploited have been drained dry".

I do not think this is true in the absolute currently. I do think that the modern economies are imparting pressures that will make this more true over time.

The question every one asks is "What is the point?". The answer is increasingly, there is no point.

What about the answers previous generation might have had; send money home, improve life chances with an education, provide for a family, get a foot on the ladder, eat.

I think 20 years from now on one side looks like very low birth rates, mass homelessness and high suicide rates. For those that own assets now - a Parisian utopia surrounded by the former.

And for those that do continue to try, a room the size of a double bed containing an on-suite bathroom, kitchen diner, living-room and sleeping space - all in one! with no prospect of ownership.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#399

Post by humanrebar »

Pfhreak wrote: post #389
humanrebar wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, you don't know me or what I've been through either.

Sure. Point stands: I was literally a teenager making change on bagel purchases. (Yes, actual bagel shoppe.) I was absolutely making poverty wages. If I did not have free meals from work as a perk I would have starved.

And I worked minimum wage and it allowed my poor household to make ends meet. And another minimum wage job helped me stay solvent enough to survive university.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#400

Post by idrios »

dmitriid wrote: post #350
fighterpilot wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes no substitutes, but in reality this will increase the relative cost of restaurants compared to home cooking which will reduce demand for take out.

Ah yeah. You can always look at how Europe is empty and has very few, if any, restaurants with their minimum wages and healthcare. Oh wait...

You could have made this same point without being antagonistic about it. The parent's comment was valid and not in disagreement with yours
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