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Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#391

Post by mda »

jeofken wrote: post #365
mda wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"argue in good faith"? "willing to yield to reason"? Please.

Please don’t taint HN with this type of response. HN is such a rare place on the internet, and let’s keep it excellent. The idea you’re dismissing is that of allowing small groups of people rule themselves which does mean some will use unconventional ways they consider best. Note that the Apenzellers didn’t hinder anyone who disagreed to leave or refuse to trade with them. They also didn’t force their way onto others…

This is what you said: "But we all argue in good faith and are willing to yield to reason" I am in disagreement with this sentence. "we all" is definitely wrong and I haven't seen many "yield to reason" here or in any forum apart from few examples.

So I found your comment disingenuous and that's why I left a sarcastic remark, not aligned to HN rules sure, but yeah I did it. Also, if you think HN is an excellent place and not tainted, I have no words.

Edit: Grammar, wording.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#392

Post by jeofken »

mda wrote: post #391
jeofken wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don’t taint HN with this type of response. HN is such a rare place on the internet, and let’s keep it excellent. The idea you’re dismissing is that of allowing small groups of people rule themselves which does mean some will use unconventional ways they consider best. Note that the Apenzellers didn’t hinder anyone who disagreed to leave or refuse to trade with them. They also didn’t force their way onto others…

This is what you said: "But we all argue in good faith and are willing to yield to reason" I am in disagreement with this sentence. "we all" is definitely wrong and I haven't seen many "yield to reason" here or in any forum apart from few examples. So I found your comment disingenuous and that's why I left a sarcastic remark, not aligned to HN rules sure, but yeah I did it. Also, if you think HN is an excellent place…

If “we all” was the part where you disagreed, why did you quote every part of my reply but that?

HN is not perfect, but it’s far from the norm online regarding good faith rational discussion, and I’ve certainly witnessed people here accepting and learning facts and from rational arguments.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#393

Post by jeofken »

jeofken wrote: post #281
rodgerd wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really admire the swiss political system & culture. Do you admire denying women the vote until the end of the 20th century?

Local self determination is admirable, and no one stopped anyone from Apenzell from voting with their feet.

It’s worth noting that there are 16000 inhabitants in AI. The fact that a nation for so long allowed such a small group to decided their own voting rules is impressive, even if you don’t agree with their tradition.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#394

Post by mda »

jeofken wrote: post #392
mda wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you said: "But we all argue in good faith and are willing to yield to reason" I am in disagreement with this sentence. "we all" is definitely wrong and I haven't seen many "yield to reason" here or in any forum apart from few examples. So I found your comment disingenuous and that's why I left a sarcastic remark, not aligned to HN rules sure, but yeah I did it. Also, if you think HN is an excellent place…

If “we all” was the part where you disagreed, why did you quote every part of my reply but that? HN is not perfect, but it’s far from the norm online regarding good faith rational discussion, and I’ve certainly witnessed people here accepting and learning facts and from rational arguments.

Why? I also said I mostly disagreed with "yield to reason" part. Ok, sure, the let me say it again then, I fully disagree with "we all" and mostly disagree with "yield to reason" and "in good faith" parts of your sentence.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#395

Post by AnthonyMouse »

2rsf wrote: post #334
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. The US has an incoherent assemblage of spare parts for an ID system and it's been years since I've seen the inside of a physical bank. You have bank credentials and use them with with the bank. You have post office credentials and use them with the post office. This is far better…

But aren't they all based on one central ID? how can the post office or bank know that you are who you claim to be without an official ID?

The post office doesn't need to know "who you are" except insofar as you have a payment method that works which they can charge postage to.

The payment processor, in turn, just needs to know that you're authorized to draw on that account, which they know because you have the credentials established when it was opened.

Functionally none of this actually uses your name for anything useful. Even giving it to them at all is, at best, a password reset method, and there are a million other ways to do that which don't require a centralized ID.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#396

Post by crazypython »

herbst wrote: post #363
zorked wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has its advantages and disadvantages. It is also the political system that caused this: "In 1991 following a decision by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, Appenzell Innerrhoden (AI) became the last Swiss canton to grant women the vote on local issues." Notice how it was a court decision, not a result of the political process. I'd say 1991 is a bit too late to have full voting rights for women. https://en.w…

If you think that is the worst example dig deeper :) Sennerburm for example, basically legal child slavery totally normal in europe until not to long ago. And yes switzerland took a bit longer than our neighboors

> Sennerburm

Google returned zero results– did you misspell it? Google usually can't find documents for misspelled rare words

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#397

Post by marcod »

cies wrote: post #340
marcod wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bad, I thought the anti electronic ID vote was also a referendum. Populist ideas, can easily thrive in a direct democracy.

It was. And the face covering ban was spinned to be against the customs of a minority. It is still allowed indoors. Every country has some clothing requirements. Some mandate headscarfs (for women only), some mandate the face remains visible. No laws were needed for this in Swiss because no people were covering up. But now this has changed, so laws come. I dont find any problem with it, and hope that the "custom" of…

"But now this has changed, so laws come."

A few dozen women in a country of 8.5 million do not need a law, especially one that doesn't really do anything for the victims, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26380029

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#398

Post by aranelsurion »

m_mueller wrote: post #386
aranelsurion wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the premise, I don't see how this specific event ties to your argument. A simple Google search shows that the referendum passed with 57% of the voters support, so that leaves us with a 43% who thinks it's a bad idea for one reason or another. Since around 5% of Switzerland is muslim, one could argue building minarets is not such a scandalous idea for Swiss voters.

This is quite a simplistic view I think. Neither a 'yes' nor a 'no' to this initiative says that a voter thinks of it as scandalous either way. Maybe there should be more options to answer such votes though, like "don't care", "don't understand", "yes/no, and I feel so strongly about this to use my yearly joker" - but at the end you don't wanna overcomplicate the political process.

I believe that misses my point.

OP seems to be suggesting that people should "do as the romans do", and I said while I agree with the general idea, his suggestion doesn't fit the case in hand.

In this case half of romans are verifiably not bothered [1] by the act of building minarets, then this simple act doesn't signal that people "go there without a degree of humility and willingness to adapt", in his words.

Or you could turn it around and say, if (having ability to) building minarets was such an unacceptable expectation to a point of painting one as a colonist, it wouldn't gather the support it gathered from the local community in the first place.

[1] to the extent of participating in a political process to explicitly disagree with the ban.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#399

Post by vinay427 »

DocTomoe wrote: post #329
Ascarius wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually at the same votation, Switzerland accepted a law which forbid women to wear Burka. Which is not exactly let live.

We need to be precise here. Firstly "accepting a law" implies - in western liberal democracies - a legislative process in which a law is proposed and accepted by some kind of parliament. This is not what happened here - in Switzerland, laws can be given to the population directly by non-parliamentary, non-governmental organisations in referenda, which then become binding. The law you are referring to was accepted by…

> Firstly "accepting a law" implies - in western liberal democracies - a legislative process in which a law is proposed and accepted by some kind of parliament. This is not what happened here - in Switzerland, laws can be given to the population directly by non-parliamentary, non-governmental organisations in referenda, which then become binding.

This is more of a tangent, but I would contest the idea that "accepting a law" implies that it is passed by a parliamentary body. This was maybe true in the 1800s, but not today when plenty of western liberal democracies have some form of direct democracy with electoral referendums on important issues. Some (e.g. California) have a system roughly comparable to Switzerland, although it's obviously at the state level in the case of CA.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#400

Post by dheera »

Talanes wrote: post #317
dheera wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> buying an uninhabitable toxic dump is actually cheaper Considering I'm in the bay area, land alone is actually expensive here so that doesn't really work. Is there any way to buy this unhabitable dump in a remote area and have the mail picked up and delivered to me? Are there any businesses doing this?

Is there any scenario in which you would need to receive mail to that address?

Yes, the whole point is to be able to receive mail but not disclose where I sleep to the people who need to send me mail.

I need to receive everything from packages to ballots to credit cards to legal documents.

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