Live data from Hacker News

We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

nytimes.com

391–400 of 461 posts

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#391

Birthrates are a powerful, but lagging/post-hoc indicator of public policy effects. It's worth noting that we tend to associate high birthrates with poverty and negative social outcomes. Except, when rates are low we (western countries) use immigration from high-birthrate societies to shore up the population replacement rate, as the article notes. When you look at who is having kids in the US and Canada, the families…

As a new father, I share this perspective. To get an anecdotal sense of our financial struggle, we have 2-4x the net worth that my parents when they were our age, but cannot afford the same house that I grew up in and doubt we ever will.

Some contend that this isn't a sign of poverty but rather a sign of wealth.

i.e., suppose every consumption good becomes 10x as cheap overnight. Cars, food, phones, clothes, travel by air, electricity, movies, music.

What would happen to home prices? Well, it's likely they'd skyrocket. All the additional disposable income has to flow somewhere, to some asset, and that's often real estate.

There's some indication that that's been happening. Of course there's many other stories in real estate which clearly indicates we're less well off than before, particularly certain groups.

But there's also many indications we're better off, but simply spending more of our money on RE, because in part, we can, because in part, we want to.

For example, compare the average home size (square footage) in 1950 to 2020 and anywhere inbetween, it's a pretty straight line that ends up a 2.5x increase.

Then compare the average persons per home, it decreased from about 3.4 to 2.5, in large part to the large number of single-person household, a luxury not affordable in the 1950s, especially not to women in a much more patriarchal society than today.

This means we've seen a tremendous increase in the square foot per person. That's a measure of wealth. The fact home prices skyrocketed due to the demand for these luxuries, and the (by definition) ability for Americans to afford to push prices to these levels, should not necessarily be seen as an affordability crisis, but rather as an indication of wealth.

Yes, if prices of bread skyrocketed and we were all consuming less because of it, that's poverty. But if the average bread consumption per household grew by 2.5x, and the average number of people eating that bread in the household dropped by 25%, then you can't quite say that on average we're less well-off, bread-wise.

And homes aren't the same as in the 1950s either. Today's homes are well-equipped with many luxuries and comforts. Finally, high prices are a bit misleading without taking interest rates into account. In the 1980s for example interest rates were 15%, you'd pay your home in full every 6 years in interest alone. Just look at the historical trend of interest rates, they're at record lows. For example, a 30 year mortgage of 100k at the 1980's 15% interest rate, costs as much in total payments, as a 30 year mortgage of 300k at today's 3% interest rate. A 3x price increase alone has absolutely no effect on affordability in the past 40 years due to the massive drop in interest rates. If you take into account the fact that nominal income grew by 5x since the 1980s as well, plus the larger square footage and the fewer people per home, it's easy to see why the cost of a square foot has actually become way more affordable. And given many things got so much cheaper, it's easy to see why so much wealth has flowed to RE.

Definitely don't want to pretend like there's no housing affordability issues anywhere, but I do want to nuance the view a bit that we're generally worse off than previous generations, in which housing is an oft mentioned example. But on balance, it's not really the clearest example for this generational loss of quality of life that people tend to think it is.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also add; limited housing development. Most new housing development after the war was gotten by turning farmlands and nature into single family houses. A lot of places have reached the limits of how far one can expand and run into some combination of geographical barriers, legal barriers (e.g. protected park or farmlands), or the barrier posed by time (most people have an upper limit of how long they are willing to c…

Ban building new office space in overcrowded areas. Big corps will be forced to build their offices elsewhere, in remote areas with plenty of land, workers will follow and so do small businesses.

1. Who would pass and enforce such a ban? Local governments are self interested and want more jobs, because it makes politicians look good and jobs require minimal additional services while providing lots of tax money. (See: Bay Area) State has same issues. Feds don't have the rights to do so, and good luck passing that kind of legislation anyways.

2. With the decline of the inner city during the midcentury we already saw what this looked like. It mostly resulted in jobs moving to the suburbs of established big cities, not decentralization of jobs into totally different regions.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#393
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is is it you that are the outlier or your dad? What kind of housing did your grandfathers and great-grandfathers have?

The point is precisely that neither of them is an outlier within their respective time -- they are normal people who want "normal" housing: i.e. just enough to raise a family in. The parents born in the 30s-50s could largely afford to purchase homes large enough to raise a family in, but far fewer people born in the 70s-90s will be able to do the same.

This isn't really true. First, what's considered "big enough to raise a family in" has doubled since the 1950s-1970s. I grew up in an 1,100 square foot house built in the 1950s. The starter homes around us are double that size.

Also, as the U.S. grows, the "frontiers" obviously shift. Since 1970, the U.S. has grown from 205 million to 330 million, and the number of people per house has gone down significantly. Back when it was built in the 1950s, the house I grew up in was in a new development in a boring suburb of D.C--itself a boring city with mainly GS-scale government jobs. Now, with all the tech jobs in the D.C. area, it's become a more desirable, upscale place.

What used to be the boring, middle-class suburb is now somewhere around Kansas City, MO or Greensboro, NC. Houses in those places are just as affordable as the houses you grew up in. In fact, when you account for growing house size and falling interest rates, they are more affordable: https://donsnotes.com/financial/real-estate.html

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#394
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It’s not some fundamental biological fact that you can’t raise a family in fewer than 1500 sq. ft. of house and 1/4 an acre of property. That was just a cultural norm set in a particular time and place.

I don't understand what the value to you is here in arguing that we all ought to just settle for less. More space is preferable, better conditions are preferable, and we do have the capabilities to work toward these things for all humans. The specific factors of post-WWII America may be unlikely ever to be repeated, but I can't agree that we should all settle for life as it was in the 1910s or earlier on the basis th…

A sentence with "ought" in it is a signal that what follows is a pointless thought. You can't will things into existence by saying it "ought" to be that way.

As to your other point, some aspects of living conditions are scalable, and others are not--something that's obvious if you're thinking about what "is" rather than what "ought to be." Technology doesn't magic more land into existence. As the population of the country grows (it has grown from 200 million in 1970 to 330 million today) space becomes more expensive. There is no reason to assume that the trend should be toward more space per person. In fact, physics and math tells you the trend should be in the opposite direction.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#395
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is is it you that are the outlier or your dad? What kind of housing did your grandfathers and great-grandfathers have?

The point is precisely that neither of them is an outlier within their respective time -- they are normal people who want "normal" housing: i.e. just enough to raise a family in. The parents born in the 30s-50s could largely afford to purchase homes large enough to raise a family in, but far fewer people born in the 70s-90s will be able to do the same.

> The parents born in the 30s-50s could largely afford to purchase homes large enough to raise a family in, but far fewer people born in the 70s-90s will be able to do the same.

Does not explain why home sizes grew 2.5x since the 1950s, while the average household size dropped from 3.4 to 2.5. (which is in large part due to the many single-person households).

There's many indications that we're enjoying much more real estate per person than ever before, real estate which is also much more luxurious and located in much more interesting locations, with better schools, more safety, more amenities etc.

Second, we tend to easily forget that the past wasn't divided equally. Being a woman and running your own household independent from a husband was a pipe dream for many women back then. Buying a home was a pipe dream for many black families, too. There's lots of such examples. This past we speak of where 'we all' had it better is often actually a bit of a narrow view of certain groups of people having it better, ignoring others who definitely didn't. Whereas now the average person is better off, in small part at the expense of a smaller group who used to dominate before.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#396
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can find cheap housing, the problem is it's all in places where most people don't want to live. For example, Detroit, or any of thousands of small towns all over the US. Not picking on Detroit, it's just an obvious example of a large city that used to have a much larger population.

Ah that reminds me, we should not discount racism as a factor. Many would rather become debt slaves for life or forgo children than live cheaply around black people.

Using the word racism so liberally devalues its meaning.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me an affordable house in on the edge of NYC in the "undesirable" neighborhoods. Even if you pick neighborhoods past where subway lines end (a very undesirable quality for city property to have) that also happen to be high crime areas it is still too expensive for anyone to purchase. Like two examples look at New Lots/East New York and South Ozone Park/Jamaica. Both fit my description above, they are at the very…

1980s NYC did not have “the faintest whiff of a city about to take off”. That couple bought property in a crime ridden part of a crime ridden city. Tompkins Square Park was an open air drug market. The equivalent today is a bad area of Detroit. I’m certain you can find something affordable there today. I doubt it will turn you into a multimillionaire, but if we were having this conversation in 1984 everyone would dou…

Having grown up in the 1990s in the D.C. suburbs, and visiting family in Queens (recent immigrants) I still reflexively do a double take when new associates at my law firm say they're living in Brooklyn, or in D.C., in Capitol Hill. Like--I know you can afford to live somewhere decent!

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#398
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless everyone moves to protect their new found billion by buying assets, in which case asset prices shoot the roof. This is not a problem, since most assets these days are unproductive, and like you say, no one would notice a difference in their day to day lives. The one place people would notice is housing. The fix is to see somehow make houses a toxic asset that cost exactly the value the provide in the form of a…

>> somehow make houses a toxic asset that cost exactly the value the provide in the form of a roof, and no more. Wow, that seems like a plan just bulging with answers to the question: "What Could Go Wrong?". Yikes Pretty clearly, rent control doesn't work either, it just creates two distorted markets. Homeless shelters don't work except for a few cold nights. Housing projects don't usually create good conditions eith…

Fiddling with the demand side causes problems.

Better would be to lift the restrictions on supply, loosen the zoning laws.

/Soapbox (not aimed at you): I've been reading zoning regulations in several localities. "Land of the free" my ass! More like control and conformity. It doesn't make sense to me why accessory dwelling units are not allowed in areas with high demand, or more duplexes, triplexes, and walkups. There's no safety issues involved. It's simply greedy property owners imposing on others because they are selfish and can get away with it.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been thinking about this lately. Similar to you, the house I grew up in is much more less affordable now than it was when my parents bought it. However, in my case it’s not really the same house any more. At the time, the location was thought to be on the outskirts of town, away from the desirable areas. As the city grew, this location became the desirable area. If I look to what is now considered the outskirts,…

That's what I don't understand, if population growth is stagnant or declining, how is it these housing prices are reaching such heights?

To some extent homes in affluent are expensive because they are expensive. Most rich people don't want to live near poor people and so they'll pay extra for that even if it seems economically irrational.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always suspicious of anecdotes that go "I never wanted to do [thing], and then I had a thought that changed my perspective on [thing] though it's not really logical up front, and then [thing] happened and now I love [thing]." I always suspect it's the psycological immune system [1] kicking in to alter your own perceptions of [thing] so you don't go crazy, because [thing] was originally something you Did Not Want…

It also reminds me of the choice-supportive bias.[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

Lol, not many parent will come forward and openly say that they regret having kids.
Post reply on HN