I will know whether or not China engineered this virus when I read compelling, trustworthy evidence to that end.
US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#392Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that the lab was experimenting with gain of function research on corona viruses and has had viruses escape in the past is not definitive proof, but is evidence.
I wouldn't call that evidence. "He's shot a gun before" isn't evidence, and coronaviruses are a pretty broad group as I understand it (not an expert). This is a densely-populated, agriculture-heavy third-world part of the world that had bird flu and sars in the previous 15 years... random-ass diseases materialize there. Occam's razor says it's another one of those.
I don't think you're being very good faith right now.
Clearly a lab studying coronaviruses is interesting. Clearly its possible that the lab could have had a leak. Clearly it's possible a farmer could have wandered into a cave, or run into a bat in the wild. Clearly it's possible that it didn't originate in China.
There is certainly enough evidence to investigate the lab being a possibility. It definitively being responsible or not is definitely of interest. There was a lot of cover up at the beginning, which implies to me a party who knows they are responsible.
From everything I've read on the topic, the best going theory that I understood is that in order for the lab to perform tests on coronavirus found in bats, coronavirus samples are collected from bats. A person must collect these bats from caves, not in Wuhan. A person might have collected the samples improperly or with insufficient gear, resulting in contracting and then spreading the disease.
That's not a "controversial" (read: conspiracy) theory, that's not an act of the state being evil. That's something that could happen anywhere in the world. That's something that could happen on accident. That's something that could be prevented by improved process/standards/equipment. By denying the possibilities of such things, it makes it look like there was a coverup or an explicitly guilty party. Everyone should want to know the nature of it's origin. It should obviously be a possibility.
> Occam's razor says it's another one of those.
To me occam's razor says that Wuhan is a first apparent epicenter. So it stands to believe it's the first place with major outbreak. Wuhan has a lab that studies this very disease specifically for it's epidemic properties. The most simple occam's razor explanation to me is that it has to do with the lab.
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#393Earlier quoted context omitted.
> After all, aside from the whole "no evidence" thing, what does it matter if it's a lab accident or a bat bite or whatever? Indeed because both of those leading theories point the blame at China. So if people want to blame china nothing is stopping them. Except perhaps those claiming it came from Europe or the US first. Perhaps that's the point of the stonewalling, to provide cover for being able to claim alternativ…
Yeah, whatever % of Chinese who blame the West are the mirror image of westerners blaming China, and they're all absolute morons. It doesn't matter where the virus showed up first, it's here and we all have to deal with it. > Who is the "we" you are referring to? The western world? The US? I was thinking US -- I guess it goes to varying extents to the rest of the "western world", depending on how you define that.
> Yeah, whatever % of Chinese who blame the West are the mirror image of westerners blaming China, and they're all absolute morons.
But you're a westerner blaming the west, so that's cool?
Anyway doesn't one of the sides have the majority of facts on their side? I can't imagine the virus would have been eliminated by anything the west did, as it surely spread to the developing world at the same time anyway. I really don't think there's much the US could have done to lock down either. Trump floated the idea of restricting travel to the NYC region and Cuomo threatened to sue. You want Trump seizing emergency powers and suspending the constitution?
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#394First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…
I was thinking if a virus was first spotted in New York City and it had a virus lab, would that be immediately blamed? It’s like all there is in Wuhan is a wet market and a virus research lab and they are located next to each other. I think that’s how the world perceives Wuhan.
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#395[deleted]
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#396Earlier quoted context omitted.
> People are accusing them of building the virus in a lab with literally zero evidence I don't think there is a lot of evidence for malice, but there is definitely evidence worthy of contemplation: https://project-evidence.github.io/ Here is a study from 2007: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2258702/ > In this study, we investigated the receptor usage of the SL-CoV S by combining a human immunodeficiency…
Yes, it's a virus lab and existed for years. The accusation that Covid-19 came from there has no evidence besides "china bad" and "I've seen a lot of movies". I guess I should have specifically said covid-19 rather than "the virus", but I thought that would be clear from context.
> The accusation that Covid-19 came from there has no evidence besides "china bad" and "I've seen a lot of movies".
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#397If anyone is tempted to associate 'lab leak' with xenophobia or anti-Chinese sentiment, please remember the WIV lab was in partnership with the U.S. NIH (National Institutes of Health). https://www.biospace.com/article/1nih-awards-ecohealth-allia...
I think there are a couple of conflations in the 'lab leak' meme. - China intentionally manufactured the virus and released it (Proven false, virus wasn't engineered) - China accidentally released the virus while collecting it (Possible, but unlikely given the virus has early evidence away from both collection point and Wuhan Lab) - China has too many wet markets that allowed the virus to mutate enough for human jump…
>- China intentionally manufactured the virus and released it (Proven false, virus wasn't engineered)
The most common lab leak hypothesis I've seen is that it was engineered during gain-of-function research and then accidentally leaked.
The fallacy is just that the only reason someone would engineer a virus would be to weaponize it. Gain-of-function research is regularly done to study and combat viruses. So just because it was engineered doesn't imply it was intentionally released.
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#398First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…
What other issues would you not trust the Chinese government on? For example, is food safety one of them?
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Senior WHO official dodges questions about Taiwan’s WHO membership; praises China": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM Japan's deputy prime minister calls the WHO the "Chinese Health Organization": https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/04/29/commentary/w... > are we saying that the international group that entered china were some how in league with the CCP? There may be reason to expect that they or the…
I agree on the Taiwan front, that's BS and annoying. But given WHO needed as much of China's cooperation at that time I can understand not wanting to aggravate them. Really... Japan... because there is no history of tension between China and Japan that would make me doubt Japan's agenda here. WHO is an international organisation, literally people from around the world work there... are ALL of these people actually se…
Let's assume that at least some key superiors at WHO are biased, but the majority of the lower-level investigators are honest and not especially biased. What can the WHO superiors do to try to prevent the investigation from producing an embarrassing report? Stratagems that come to mind: choose which investigators to send, choose who to lead the teams of investigators, get involved in writing up the final reports (either directly or by leaning on those who do). The investigators' work was presumably divided up; perhaps someone could have arranged for a CCP-friendly investigator to be in charge of a particularly sensitive area. Or the report summaries could omit or spin certain issues. I don't know how the investigation was organized, or the reports for that matter, but there's probably at least some room for the superiors to inject their bias into the overall outcome.
Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins
#400First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…
There's a real possibility that a gain-of-function experiment created SARS-CoV-2:
"Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the White House in 2014 announced that there would be a “pause” in the funding of new influenza, SARS, and MERS gain-of-function research." [0]
In December 2017, the US began funding gain-of-function research on these deadly diseases again. This research creates deadly diseases that may not have existed otherwise.
This pandemic has been enough for me to strongly believe that there should be a global ban on gain-of-function experiments on deadly viruses and bacteria. I'd like to help prevent a future pandemic, and that's one clear way we can help.
[0] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca...