The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire • Hacker News Board

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#391

Post by ehsankia » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:14 AM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #330

phailhaus wrote: post #303

The author theorizes that this ban will inflame tensions, but I don't believe that's true. Look at Reddit's ban on toxic subreddits. They found that banning toxic subreddits reduced the toxicity in the website as a whole, and that "post-ban, hate speech by the same users was reduced by as much as 80-90 percent." [1] Reddit is just a closed system of communities; YouTube is one such community in the larger system of s…

I see this argument all the time. Sweeping opinions you don't like under the rug doesn't make them go away. People will still hold the same opinions they will just do so where you can't hear them. I prefer the racist I can see. This pushes them underground and radicalizes them. You mentioned reddit. Do you remember what voat became when reddit closed down subs? That hate didn't go away it just moved and concentrated…

You are trying to intentionally muddy the waters here. Vaccines, masks and who won the election are not "sweeping opinions you don't like". People have actually died due to the anti-vaxx movement, leading to +50% Measle deaths in 2019. These are hard facts and these decisions are a matter of life or death.

No one is blocking opinions. Trump has failed to prove election fraud in over 50 cases so far, and the safe harbor deadline has now past, which is why Youtube has now put this rule in place. It is now confirmed that Biden has won the election, and anyone claiming otherwise is intentionally lying. If they had proof, they would've shown it in court, where there are real consequences, not on social media where anything goes.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#392

Post by amanaplanacanal » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:14 AM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #133

titanomachy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a right to say whatever you want to whomever you want without fear of government retaliation, as long as it isn't "hate speech" in a fairly narrow legal sense. This is what "having free speech in society" has always meant. The government will also punish people who commit crimes against you merely because they dislike your words, which frees you to say things you might otherwise keep to yourself. What you do…

> " What you don't have a right to do is amplify your message using the massively powerful social-media megaphones which are created and owned by tech companies. " What makes anyone think that other groups won't be able to create their own social-media megaphones? The tech is well understood already and they're highly motivated and well funded. It's been tried a couple of times already and eventually they're going to…

Let the market sort it out. If the market is there, the competition will be good for everybody.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#393

Post by bird_monster » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:14 AM UTC

I would argue that YouTube is behaving _more american_, in that they're a private business that's doing whatever they want within their rights (taking down content they deem inappropriate).

The government isn't censoring YouTube. Any Trump supporter that believes that YouTube is over-moderating is free to create their own website from which they can spawn whatever garbage content they want.

Spoiler, though: They won't. It turns out the only reason most nutjobs on Facebook/YouTube/Reddit amounted to anything at all is because they were given a free megaphone and millions of listeners. I'm not sure why private businesses have to allow such behavior?

Until slander and libel get enforced on social media sites, which would solve most of these problems anyway (I think), why does anyone think these websites _have to_ cater to every single subculture? If I were at the helm of any reasonably sized social media company I certainly would not want my site attached with fascist propaganda.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#394

Post by ardy42 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:15 AM UTC

wkjenjkwenf wrote: post #331

phailhaus wrote: post #303

The author theorizes that this ban will inflame tensions, but I don't believe that's true. Look at Reddit's ban on toxic subreddits. They found that banning toxic subreddits reduced the toxicity in the website as a whole, and that "post-ban, hate speech by the same users was reduced by as much as 80-90 percent." [1] Reddit is just a closed system of communities; YouTube is one such community in the larger system of s…

Sure, it reduced tensions on reddit , but what about tensions everywhere else? The author doesn't care about how toxic Youtube is, he cares how toxic the US is. Pushing these radicals onto radical websites only further radicalizes them. That should be an axiomatic fact, yet nobody seems to understand it.

>> Sure, it reduced tensions on reddit, but what about tensions everywhere else? The author doesn't care about how toxic Youtube is, he cares how toxic the US is. Pushing these radicals onto radical websites only further radicalizes them. That should be an axiomatic fact, yet nobody seems to understand it.

> Sure, it reduced tensions on reddit, but what about tensions everywhere else? The author doesn't care about how toxic Youtube is, he cares how toxic the US is. Pushing these radicals onto radical websites only further radicalizes them. That should be an axiomatic fact, yet nobody seems to understand it.

Oh everyone understands it, but there's a trade-off you're not acknowledging:

1. Letting these people stay on twitter, YouTube, or reddit gives them an audience to recruit. The people in these toxic groups then may be less radical on average, but there will be more of them overall.

There also will still be highly radicalized members, and the sympathy of the less radical gives them support that could allow them to do more damage.

2. Quarantining them to Gab or Parler or whatever denies them the recruiting opportunities. The dead-enders who migrate will become more radicalized, but their numbers will be smaller, and perhaps decline over time, due the the lack of new blood.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#395

Post by bird_monster » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:15 AM UTC

d1zzy wrote: post #220

Analemma_ wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the days on forums when people screaming "YOU'RE VIOLATING THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!!11" after the admin banned them were treated as the laughable jokes they were. Now there are supposedly serious political thinkers subscribing to this same idea: that the Constitution forces private parties to do business with you against their will. It's a serious lack of civic knowledge.

I would argue that the right of business to not do business with anyone they don't want to is very much American (regardless if it's right or wrong).

I posted below, but yes, agreed, a private business managing itself however it deems appropriate is one of the most american things it can do.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#396

Post by seppin » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:16 AM UTC

ehsankia wrote: post #384

jessah wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody understands that. But reach is taken from them. That's a extremely important effect. Way more important than the radicalisation, because if these people seek out new platforms to radicalize them self, they would likely have done so in every case. The danger of radicalizing a bigger part of the population is what is at stake here.

There are 3 scenarios: 1. Someone who is radicalized digging deeper 2. Someone who is radicalized changing their mind 3. Someone who is not radicalized getting radicalized #1 is bound to happen, #2 has no chance of happening, so at this point, preventing #3 is the way to go. Keeping these already radicalized people on Youtube achieves nothing. On the other hand, keeping them on Youtube gives these them a huge platfor…

Honestly if the choice is between no bans and allowing the current trends of radicalization continue, almost any outcome is preferable than what we've seen happen the last 5-10 years.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#397

Post by seppin » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:17 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #348

effingwewt wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument all the time. Sweeping opinions you don't like under the rug doesn't make them go away. People will still hold the same opinions they will just do so where you can't hear them. I prefer the racist I can see. This pushes them underground and radicalizes them. You mentioned reddit. Do you remember what voat became when reddit closed down subs? That hate didn't go away it just moved and concentrated…

Sweeping opinions you don't like under the rug doesn't make them go away I think we need to look at that carefully - especially, how much of youtube hate is well-considered, articulated positions and how much is people just "swept into the propaganda." That's a complicated question but think the medium of video tends to be worst form for well-considered opinions and the form most likely to just be a carrier of irrati…

No but feeding one opinion, slightly more radical than the last over and over very much does cause an increase in radical and extremist views.

This isn't about removing hate, this is about making sure it's not promoted at scale.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#398

Post by toofy » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:18 AM UTC

scoopertrooper wrote: post #360

wkjenjkwenf wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it reduced tensions on reddit , but what about tensions everywhere else? The author doesn't care about how toxic Youtube is, he cares how toxic the US is. Pushing these radicals onto radical websites only further radicalizes them. That should be an axiomatic fact, yet nobody seems to understand it.

Regardless of the morality, I suspect that it will prove to be quite efficacious. Banning this kind of nonsense from mainstream platforms will certainly not reduce the toxicity of the existing radicals, but it will curtail their ability to spread their message and recruit. These movements did not materialise out of a vacuum. Their growth and replenishment of strength is largely contingent on permissive mainstream pla…

> I think platforms like Youtube and Facebook have shown the dangers of democratised mass-broadcasting.

Does anyone know of any good research on the early days of radio? I have a suspicion we had a similar problem before regulation due to the overcrowded airwaves.

If you know of any good books that cover this era let me know please.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#399

Post by dragontamer » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:18 AM UTC

Talanes wrote: post #312

dragontamer wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He should, it's the basis of democracy. Do you support the election that happened on November 3rd 2020? Then you must support the results of the election, whether you like the election results, or not. THAT is the basis of Democracy: the peaceful transfer of power based on the votes. If you do not respect the votes, then Democracy falls apart. You literally cannot have a Democracy without votes (while we had a Demo…

Do you honestly believe that Government reduction in free speech would lead to a net gain in people's trust in the process?

Do you honestly believe that these lies that a huge number of people believe in are having a positive or neutral effect on the trust of our elections?

If it's neither positive nor neutral, then the only effect it could have is negative.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#400

Post by seppin » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:19 AM UTC

olefoo wrote: post #150

This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL. What Taibbi is asking for is that the guy who tells you that drinking rat poison is good for you should be allowed an audience and that even putting a warning alongside the video would be an infringement on his rights. Looking at the comments here I have to conclude that HN is no longer on…

> Taibbi

Also this guy is not the same author some might have known a few years ago, he himself has been relegated to the regressive left Glenn Greenwald corner of the internet. Take his narrative with the proper grain of salt.