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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#391
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies hire activists because they want to look good without actually changing things. I agree with this statement but for the life of me I can’t come up with a satisfactory answer as to why companies don’t want to actually change things. Is it purely institutional inertia? Are the benefits of a more diverse workplace not accepted by the powers that be, so efforts to achieve that are undermined?

From behind the former Iron Curtain, I can smell the "we need to pay lip service to a powerful dogma, but we think implementing it would be a disaster" approach. This was a normal state of things in the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. If Timnit Gebru were a cynical opportunist, she would just hop on the bandwagon, pretend to care and collect her paycheck. But she seems to be a true believer, and true believers won't…

But why do they think implementing this would be a disaster? Seems you are saying the fundamental issue is a lack of buy-in, and I am unclear what this stems from. The research shows diversity adds value to companies. Fewer blind spots, better long term performance.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point me to that Twitter thread?

Overview here, pasted from another commenter elsewhere in this rabbit hole. https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter...

TLDR : Yann Lecun tweeted that ML models are biased when the dataset they are trained on is biased. Bunch of people, including Timnit Gebru, replied he is wrong and the biases are every where and systemic.

Yann later tweeted again to explain what he meant in the context of deep learning models without hand engineered features, but people ignored him and still replied he was wrong.

It looks like they were accusing Yann of all the systemic biases of society... common.

Is there a paper showing that the Transformers based models are "biased" no matter the dataset ?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#393

It looks like the paper was critical of large language models: https://www.fastcompany.com/90582375/timnit-gebru-google-fir... The original article has been updated with Jeff Dean's response, while a member of Gebru's team (who still works at Google Brain) states that Dean's email is misleading and inaccurate: https://twitter.com/alexhanna/status/1334579764573691904 As I understand it: The paper had already been subm…

This. Failure to cite relevant research is a reason to reject a paper from a conference but that's not the job of an internal review. Research independence is fundamental and why professors are given tenure. Sure companies are companies and don't play by those rules, but you can't claim to be making a fair academic criticism if you're not adhering to academic norms. If the paper was bad it should have been rejected b…

To me, the Jeff Dean's email sounds like this paper failed to cite some research and as a result made Google look less good than Google actually is. This sounds like somewhat minor academic mistake, but at the same time a major PR mistake.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#394
post #321
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that for a person who lives in a world where AI shops routinely sell software that discriminate against minorities, not just in ways that are explained by poorly thought out datasets, saying you’re “so tired” is at all wrong. This is the exact research that Timnit is an expert on, and these are systems that have real world consequences for minorities. It’s easy for people who are not minorities to say y…

I bet there is research showing how racism and discrimination literally tires out the people subjected to it. And now you have people saying they're not allowed to express that.

Nobody said it was disallowed. The grandparent said he called it out as a lazy rhetorical move. It's certainly true that oppression can be tiring (does that point need research?) It may equally be true that some people overclaim on the extent of their oppression, and the mental health harms they are suffering from it, and even make a profession of doing so.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#395
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So was it a bluff or was it a resignation?

The original post was updated with more information. Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an…

She called it being fired because Google terminated her employment earlier than she offered to resign.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expanding the dataset and/or using a subset of it?

Gebru would disagree: > “I think that now a lot of people have understood that we need to have more diverse datasets, but unfortunately I felt like that’s kind of where the understanding has stopped. It’s like ‘let’s diversify our datasets. And that’s kind of ethics and fairness, right?’ But you can’t ignore social and structural problems.“ This seems to be saying that Yann LeCun should actually be addressing social…

IMHO she is saying it’s reasonable to believe that social and systemic issues have an impact on creating ML models (as the teams designing, building, and deploying said models are members of society) in ways in addition to the data sets.

I don’t know what the right answer is but plenty of institutions come up with ways they attempt to deal with systemic biases. For example, blind auditions for positions in orchestras (you only hear the person auditioning, you can’t see them). Used to not be a thing. Now it is.

Point being that when people are motivated they are able to come up with stuff.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#397
It's hard to make too much sense about what happened. Here's what I made of it, if anyone can point out any important mistakes/inaccuracies/details:

1. She and her co-authors submitted a paper for review 1 day before its (external, for publication?) due date. It's supposed to be submitted to Google 2 weeks prior, so they can review.

2. The authors submitted it externally before the review was returned.

3. Google decided that the paper "didn’t meet our bar for publication" and demanded a retraction.

4. Timnit Gebru demanded access to all of the internal feedback, along with the author of the feedback. If Google wouldn't provide this access, she said that she intended to resign and would set a final day.

5. Google declined her demands and took her ultimatum as a resignation. Rather than setting a final date, they made the separation effective immediately.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#398

Good for Google. I don't know anything about her, but her debate with Lecun on Twitter was enough for me to know she is toxic. I don't care how good of a researcher she is. The fact they fired her given the current climate shows they actually have balls. I had no idea... I read her email. You know what's crazy about it? she is talking about Google silencing marginalized voices. She keeps referring to herself as a mar…

I don't think she's saying she's marginalized because she's a well known researcher who people listen to, she's saying she's marginalized because one or more people, who have their identities concealed, asked her to retract a paper she already published via HR.

Granted, because the process she described is anonymous and opaque by design, it could have happened to other people at the company and only they, HR, and the people requesting/ordering the retraction would know about it. At the same time, if that's the case, then Google needs to stop that, because it looks really bad, especially when it involves a minority researcher who published a paper on how certain models Google uses may have some degree of discriminatory bias built into them.

Imagine this: You’ve sent a paper for feedback to 30+ researchers, you’re awaiting feedback from PR & Policy who you gave a heads up before you even wrote the work saying “we’re thinking of doing this”, working on a revision plan figuring out how to address different feedback from people, haven’t heard from PR & Policy besides them asking you for updates (in 2 months). A week before you go out on vacation, you see a meeting pop up at 4:30pm PST on your calendar (this popped up at around 2pm). No one would tell you what the meeting was about in advance. Then in that meeting your manager’s manager tells you “it has been decided” that you need to retract this paper by next week, Nov. 27, the week when almost everyone would be out (and a date which has nothing to do with the conference process). You are not worth having any conversations about this, since you are not someone whose humanity (let alone expertise recognized by journalists, governments, scientists, civic organizations such as the electronic frontiers foundation etc) is acknowledged or valued in this company.

Then, you ask for more information. What specific feedback exists? Who is it coming from? Why now? Why not before? Can you go back and forth with anyone? Can you understand what exactly is problematic and what can be changed?

And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document and you’re not supposed to even know who contributed to this document, who wrote this feedback, what process was followed or anything. You write a detailed document discussing whatever pieces of feedback you can find, asking for questions and clarifications, and it is completely ignored. And you’re met with, once again, an order to retract the paper with no engagement whatsoever.

Jeff Dean's response about mitigations being made to minimize the issues she highlighted could be justified too, but again, because the process she described is opaque, no one external to the process has any idea about the merits of the arguments raised.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pure speculation, but it's gotta be criticizing Google, right? What else could they _possibly_ have been so concerned about that they were willing to fire the researcher over it?

That would be the nail in the coffin of "we do AI ethics at Google." Gonna have to wait and see I guess.

Google? Ethics?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#400
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, that also took a bit of disentangling for me. As such, I find it really quite baffling that someone would be unwilling to share that scientific feedback with her, or who raised it.

Some refereeing processes are anonymous, and there can be good reasons for that, like preventing academic logrolling. It's standard in academia.

But the feedback itself wasn't shared with her. That part doesn't make sense unless management didn't want her to see it, and why would that be the case?
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