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World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

theguardian.com

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Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#391

Post by nec4b »

kaycebasques wrote: post #164
howlin wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several responses to the "plants have senses" rebuttal: If you care about the well being of plants, you should still prefer to eat plants rather than animals. The trophic level of animals in the food chain necessitates that they will eat more calories of plant matter than would provide calories of food upon being eaten. Secondly, you should look at the sorts of plants being consumed and where they fall in t…

> If you care about the well being of plants, you should still prefer to eat plants rather than animals. The trophic level of animals in the food chain necessitates that they will eat more calories of plant matter than would provide calories of food upon being eaten. To put this into more laymen's terms, meat cultivation dramatically increases the total amount of plants that we need to grow. As mentioned in my other…

"So, it's a bit counterintuitive, but globally switching to a plant-based diet would actually dramatically reduce the total amount of plants that we are raising, and therefore would dramatically reduce overall suffering of plants (if they suffer)"

Only if you believe you are more efficient at digesting grass and other plants than animals.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#392

Post by nec4b »

kaycebasques wrote: post #160
bayindirh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

As a real vegan (not a meme about vegans that you saw from meat eaters) I can confidently tell you that "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food" is not my biggest line of defense. My biggest lines of defense are: * Dr. Kim Williams, former president of the American College of Cardiology, said "there are two kinds of cardiologists, vegans, and those who haven't read the data" * Ani…

"* Dr. Kim Williams, former president of the American College of Cardiology, said "there are two kinds of cardiologists, vegans, and those who haven't read the data""

An appeal to authority. I'm mean surgeon general once called for not wearing masks until he changed his mind completely.

"* Animal agriculture is responsible for 20-33% of all freshwater consumption globally"

Why would that be problematic? There is no shortage of water where they raise animals. On the other hand there is a shortage of water in California where they grow crops on a massive scale.

"* Mass cultivation of animals increases the chances of pandemic"

That is a true, but the same can be said of large fields of monoculture crops where disease can quickly spread and destroy everything resulting in hunger.

"* 41% of mainland USA is used for grazing livestock, yet meat only provides 18% of our calories; feeding the world on a vegan diet could reduce farmland use by 75% or more"

Only if that 41% of mainland is suitable for plowing and you don't mind destroying other habitats for food production. Live stock can graze, humans cannot. Plus we don't need pesticides and insecticides on grasslands which are destroying our fresh water supplies.

"* Going plant-based for two-thirds of meals could reduce food-related carbon emissions by 60% (the way we produce, distribute, and refrigerate food is a huge contributor of global emissions)"

That is already true for vast majority of people on this planet. Think of the food pyramid.

"* 70-75% of soybeans grown globally are for livestock, only 6% are used for human food products (meat eaters often try to claim that soy production is terrible for the environment; surprise, surprise, meat consumption is the main driver) "

I don't know how real the numbers are, regardless it is not an ideal situation and we should strive towards less monulture.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#393

Post by missingrib »

nkrisc wrote: post #352
Razengan wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that's good enough for all the other omnivores and carnivores in the food chain, it's good enough for humans. If there’s a larger “food chain” on the interstellar scale where some intelligent species mass-consume others, would it be “good enough” for some aliens to farm humans like we do animals?

Sure. Though we'd probably mount an armed resistance to the idea, successful or not. The animals on the farm are welcome to do the same if they don't like being farmed.

This is satire?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#394

Post by KitDuncan »

disown wrote: post #255
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #21

I think I want to become vegan ... again

A lot more animals are killed to raise plants/vegetation. And I'm not talking a little more, I'm talking 1000X more. What will you do now?

So we are killing billions of animals each year to eat. I very much doubt we are killing trillions of animals by farming plants. Can you show any sources for your claims.

Also yeah, the fast majority of crops is farmed for animal feed, so your point is even more invalid.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#395

Post by KitDuncan »

Vinnl wrote: post #54
ImprobableTruth wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to their website (which is also available in dutch [1]), outside of Germany they're only available in Paris and Jumbo supermarkets in the Netherlands. [1] https://respeggt.com/nl/de-producten/

Ah, since relatively recently even, thanks! I'll look for them soon. Then the question is: which would be preferable, these or organic eggs?

No eggs would be preferable. Still plenty of killing and suffering involved in that industry.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#396

Post by cies »

kelnos wrote: post #342
cies wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegans are not necessarily asking for anything. They will simply buy products that no harm was done to animals for, given the choice. As a result they will buy more of the non-animal derived products. Some plant-meat/dairy/egg may be on the menu for vegans, but that's not what defines them. Sure some vegan may voice their believe that "all animals should be wild", but not even this belief is shared among all vegans a…

> Your statement "it's never enough for vegans" has two sides for me. That's all well and good, but the only side that matters is the side that the statement was responding to: the original parent's comment that advocated for not bothering with technologies such as this, but instead moving toward an all-vegan society. From that perspective, I think "it's never enough for [that kind of] vegan" is quite apt here.

There are camps in the vegan movement. For instance the abolitionists vs the utilitarians. The latter are generally more supportive harm reduction and will sometimes also eat non-vegan food when it otherwise goes to waste.

I'd say most vegans at this point think "harm reduction" is just a form of "green washing" and does not deserve our support or attention.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#397

Post by Vinnl »

KitDuncan wrote: post #395
Vinnl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, since relatively recently even, thanks! I'll look for them soon. Then the question is: which would be preferable, these or organic eggs?

No eggs would be preferable. Still plenty of killing and suffering involved in that industry.

What kind of suffering is involved with organic eggs, apart from the male ones being shredded?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#398

Post by parineum »

mkolodny wrote: post #372
colechristensen wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a moral difficulty here where western societies care a lot about the beginnings of things and can’t stomach things ending, as if the only desirable world is one in which we all experience immortal bliss until the heat death of the universe. Every living thing exists by consuming other living things in some way or another. Every living thing has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Most animals are at least in s…

> Thinking things were better off not existing or better off dying of organ failure instead of being eaten doesn’t always make sense to me. Would you rather live a long life and then die of organ failure, or get eaten when you're three years old? Most people value getting to live longer. So, if we apply our own principles to other animals, there's value in letting animals live longer rather than killing and eating th…

That isn't the choice.

It's billions of chickens get to live 3 years and get eaten or a million chickens die of liver failure.

But I think you're missing the parent's point. Death isn't cruel. Suffering is cruel and can only be experience by living things.

This kind of philosophy is a pretty active subject currently. The debate is, generally, maximizing happiness vs. minimizing suffering. The former creating more suffering overall and the latter creating less happiness overall.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#399

Post by Razengan »

nkrisc wrote: post #352
Razengan wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that's good enough for all the other omnivores and carnivores in the food chain, it's good enough for humans. If there’s a larger “food chain” on the interstellar scale where some intelligent species mass-consume others, would it be “good enough” for some aliens to farm humans like we do animals?

Sure. Though we'd probably mount an armed resistance to the idea, successful or not. The animals on the farm are welcome to do the same if they don't like being farmed.

The fact that animals cannot mount a resistance makes our practices even more grim and morbid, not better.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#400

Post by lmilcin »

colechristensen wrote: post #354
difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

There’s a moral difficulty here where western societies care a lot about the beginnings of things and can’t stomach things ending, as if the only desirable world is one in which we all experience immortal bliss until the heat death of the universe. Every living thing exists by consuming other living things in some way or another. Every living thing has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Most animals are at least in s…

Just because you have to die anyway doesn't mean I get permission to serve you a shitty life.
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