After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract • Hacker News Board

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#391

Post by joshuamorton » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #379

karpierz wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you sell a man a gun if they told you: "hey, if you sell this to me, I'm going to go shoot that black kid outside", and then showed you a few videos of them doing this before?

Well in this case since they showed me video evidence of murder, I would call the police (assuming I don't live in a CHAZ zone). This is bogus though. Will Home Depot allow me to buy some rope if I declare to a random employee that I plan on using it to do a lynching on my local colored neighbors? Yes, they will. Does that make Home Depot an immoral organization? Nope.

> if I declare to a random employee that I plan on using it to do a lynching on my local colored neighbors? Yes, they will. Does that make Home Depot an immoral organization? Nope.

I'd hope (and expect!) that home depot employees would ask you to leave if you made those statements while trying to purchase rope.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#392

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

coffeemaniac wrote: post #204

zdragnar wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the pictures of kids in cages came from before our current president was in office, this is the first time I've heard anyone call president Obama both evil and xenophobic.

Yes, Obama is evil and xenophobic, and a war criminal by every standard. That anyone still listens to him is a testament to how broken our politics are in the US.

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#393

Post by dsr_ » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #279

Drakim wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal immigrants in the US are most certainly a minority group. It's not hyperbolic and unproductive, it's the plain truth, just like the Japanese concentration camps during WW2.

Criminals are also a minority group that are concentrated into prisons. Is that wrong too?

Criminals are not a "minority group".

Due process is the method that a society uses to determine whether people should be punished. The concentration camps under discussion do not hold people who have been adjudicated and condemned; they hold people who have been accused.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#394

Post by kuyan » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #352

flamble wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both cases, you very clearly have some responsibility. In an incredibly straightforward and unambiguous way. I'm struggling to see how this is intended as a counterexample. Is it because disapproving of homosexuality is wrong? That doesn't at all change the entailment of responsibility by the conjunction of foreknowledge of consequences with uncoerced action. If you walk out into a public street and fire a pistol…

Well, I disagree. I have more of a "live and let live" or "golden rule" type philosophy. I wouldn't want someone denying me service because they disagree with my beliefs (and by extension, actions), so I don't deny service to people who have beliefs (and by extension, actions) I disagree with.

Sure, I wouldn't want anyone denying me service because they disagree with how I dress or other actions that are otherwise harmless. That being said, there is an incredibly wide divide between "I casually disapprove of your actions, but I will serve you anyway" and "your actions serve to strategically terrorize, harm, and silence minorities and those without the ability to effectively defend or represent themselves, and I will serve you anyway despite knowing that my service will strengthen your ability to do so."

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#395

Post by rattray » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #120

rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. They have a problem with their employer, and are being heard in the court of public opinion. Why is that "a bummer"? I don't have a particular opinion on whether or not what they are doing is an effective way to accomplish their aims. But workers speaking out for any reason, ranging from unethical wage suppressio…

Yeah, that's a good question. I think that's why this case upsets me. I want to live in a world where, as another commenter put it, executives will think twice before taking actions that they know their employees won't like. Because they should know that employees have power, and a voice, and must be listened to.

In this case, there's no way the executives can sanely take the requested action. It'd be terribly damaging to their business. (I may be wrong about this, but it's what I would think if I were an executive).

So now if I'm an executive, I have to roll my eyes at the protesting employees. They lose credibility. I'll know that next time I do something they ask for, they'll just ask me for something I can't do.

That's what bums be out.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#396

Post by philwelch » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #125

nxpnsv wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no excuses for ICE behavior, but they clearly are very different from the SS.

Let's say you're, say, IBM in the 1920s. At what point does the SS become an organization with which you refuse to do business? They didn't start off running concentration camps, after all.

If you’re referring to the Nazi movement in general, probably the point where they openly campaign against the concept of liberal democracy or use street violence (roughing up opposing groups, smashing windows, attacking/commandeering government facilities) as a means of social protest. Those are all pretty big warning signs that were present in the Nazis long before they seized power let alone built concentration camps.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#397

Post by tekromancr » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #157

drunkpotato wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demonstrably and rather obviously untrue. They're violating the law in many instances, including but not limited to the cases of asylum seekers and current green card holders; it's just they're following the evil, xenophobic whims of the current political leadership, who are failing to hold themselves or ICE accountable to the rule of law, so they are, for the moment, getting away with their lawlessness. I hope we ca…

Given that the pictures of kids in cages came from before our current president was in office, this is the first time I've heard anyone call president Obama both evil and xenophobic.

Every leader the country has had is trash. That doesn't detract from the fact that the current leadership has managed to lower and re-lower the bar. Consistently widening the window of what outrageous behavior is acceptable. At this point the office of the president is a no holds barred free-for-all and whoever occupies it next will be doing so with a precedent no near zero actionable oversight.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#398

Post by karpierz » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #379

karpierz wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you sell a man a gun if they told you: "hey, if you sell this to me, I'm going to go shoot that black kid outside", and then showed you a few videos of them doing this before?

Well in this case since they showed me video evidence of murder, I would call the police (assuming I don't live in a CHAZ zone). This is bogus though. Will Home Depot allow me to buy some rope if I declare to a random employee that I plan on using it to do a lynching on my local colored neighbors? Yes, they will. Does that make Home Depot an immoral organization? Nope.

You've avoided the question. Suppose that they'd already been on trial for it, found guilty and served their time. Do you sell them the gun, knowing that they intend to use it for violence?

If you showed Home Depot sufficient evidence that you intended to lynch someone with it, and it was Home Depot's policy that we sell rope even if it's used for murder, then yes. I think the issue in your example is that you haven't made the corporate policy clear and you haven't made it clear that the employee is convinced of what you're about to do.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#399

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #88

rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

>> I can't see how this helps improve immigration, In many ways it does the opposite, for reforms to work you need to build coalitions from all political segments of society, vilifying political opponents (the ones that believe in some kind of immigration control and do not support fully open borders) does not build that coalition that is need to fight the unethical and illegal acts. Instead it puts people on the def…

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#400

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #263

syshum wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I can't see how this helps improve immigration, In many ways it does the opposite, for reforms to work you need to build coalitions from all political segments of society, vilifying political opponents (the ones that believe in some kind of immigration control and do not support fully open borders) does not build that coalition that is need to fight the unethical and illegal acts. Instead it puts people on the def…

If you are in favor (or in the process) of putting large groups of people who have not directly harmed anyone in concentration camps, separating them from their families, keeping children in cages etc, THEN you are considered a racist authoritarian almost akin to mid 1940's Germany.

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