Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses • Hacker News Board

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#391

Post by mehrdadn » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

Press2forEN wrote: post #388

mehrdadn wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at the risk of asking a dumb question: why aren't protesters demanding e.g. more economic aid instead of a reopening? It's not like giving money to people in this crisis is a taboo anymore... it was one thing both the Congress and the White House agreed on for once. And it's not like if everything reopens then they're going to be instantly back in business. A lot of people will still stay home anyway. Wouldn't it…

This goes back to the culture point OP made. Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living.

I don't believe this. In fact I can't even make sense of it. You're saying when families' and people's lives are at stake in the US, they'd legitimately rather risk dying than just getting handed checks that their own leaders approved of practically unanimously during a crisis? Isn't this completely at odds with the sheer demand there has been for the economic aid so far? And also at odds with how politicians have been trying to claim credit for the aid? You're saying the protesters are somehow so deeply tied to these values and so morally offended by being paid "unearned" money during a globally acknowledged crisis that they're willing to go out to protest this repulsive act while packing together within 6 feet out of spite(?) and then... take the money ASAP and continue to support the politicians who are giving them the money? What?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#392

Post by Broken_Hippo » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #265

techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany, where people have sufficient trust in their government... I'm a bit hesitant to compare to either of them because I can't read the local news. That being said, didn't Sweden go with a lockdown-lite policy? The Sweedes do have the freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to their liberty. EDIT And the lockdowns are threatening something like 26…

Sure,the Swedes technically have had the freedom. But comparatively, they've also had more disease than countries with a mandated lockdown. Honestly, though, it is scarier doing this in the US: Sweden has a robust health care system and a safety net. Which means that folks that do get the virus aren't going to get hit with an expensive ICU bill after having lost their job, even if they work at a small business that would not be covered under FMLA regulations in the US.

Not to mention that they've been heavily criticized for mishandling the lockdown.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#393

Post by 2rsf » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

sulam wrote: post #382

HideousKojima wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about efficacy of government lockdown policies, universal healthcare, etc., then we absolutely should compare. And a cursory glance at the data suggests that government lockdown policies have minimal effect on the spread of the virus, there seems to be little to no correlation between severity of lockdown and cases/deaths

That’s a really weird conclusion to draw looking at what’s happened globally and in local pockets. Look at Singapore and South Korea — full lockdown and great control, and then outbreaks in places where the lockdown put people in close quarters (immigrant labor in Singapore) orwhen restrictions were lifted (bars in South Korea). Look at Wuhan itself, where it took time to establish a lockdown and contact tracing, the…

The data is here [1], that's [2] Europe's correlation between death rate and restriction and that's [3] worldwide (I didn't collect the data nor did the analysis)

[1] https://github.com/ronigold/Covid19-Analysis [2] https://rotter.net/User_files/forum/5ebd03177682d9061.jpg [3] https://rotter.net/User_files/forum/5ebd019c5e89dca42.jpg

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#394

Post by pjc50 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

dtwest wrote: post #285

techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That…

As I keep saying, comparing to "Europe" is almost meaningless because of the diversity of governments and cultures. It may also be unreasonable to talk of the US as a whole in this case.

Infections are inherently locally clustered. There seem to be all sorts of factors affecting spread, and there's no clear picture of what they are. Eastern Europe isn't very heavily affected and nobody seems to know why. Belgium is a disaster; why?

The UK made a number of big mistakes; the first cases were appearing at the end of February, but the Cheltenham Festival still went ahead in mid-March putting 250,000 people close to each other. We're now relaxing the lockdown and putting people back on packed public transport despite still having thousands of new cases per day.

In a month's time, the best handling countries will be almost entirely out of lockdown with weekly COVID deaths below 10. The worst handling countries will still have lockdown and weekly deaths in the hundreds. It looks like that will include the UK and New York state.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#395

Post by anoraca » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

It is shocking to me that someone like this could be appointed to and then elected to a state Supreme Court:

Bradley's homophobic writings that she wrote in the Marquette University student newspaper in 1992 while an undergraduate stirred controversy during the race.[8][9] She had written letters to the editor and a column for the Marquette Tribune, in which she stated she held no sympathy for AIDS patients because they were "degenerates" who had effectively chosen to kill themselves. She also referred to gays as "queers".[10][11] She called the plurality of Americans who voted for Clinton "either totally stupid or entirely evil".[12] She blasted supporters of abortion as murderers, and compared abortion to the Holocaust and slavery.[10] She attacked feminists as "angry, militant, man-hating lesbians who abhor the traditional family" and defended Camille Paglia, who had written in a 1991 column that "women who get drunk at frat parties are 'fools' and women who go upstairs with frat brothers are 'idiots'."[13] Bradley wrote that Paglia had "legitimately suggested that women play a role in date rape."[13] Bradley apologized for her student writings in 2016, shortly after they had stirred controversy.[14] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Bradley_(judge)

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#396

Post by rayiner » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

techsupporter wrote: post #223

roenxi wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany

Sweden never closed down, and Germany is in the midst of reopening. As to the safety net—there is no evidence that safety net has made a difference. (I’m part, I suspect, because the Us already has a comprehensive safety net for the elderly population that is mainly affected by COVID-19). The death rate in the US, per 100,000 people, is well below that of Sweden. It’s also far lower than the death rate in countries with well developed safety nets like France and Italy.

I strongly suspect that people in Germany/Sweden, etc., have more trust in their government because the people themselves are simply less far apart. To pick a controversial but illustrative example: in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in America. The right is currently focused on ending abortion entirely, while the left is trying to extend abortions into the third trimester (which are pretty much unprecedented in Europe). Or take taxes. Many in the right want to dismantle the existing tax system. But on the left, they treat lowering corporate taxes to the same level as Sweden or Germany (and France and Canada, etc.) not merely as bad policy, but as an affront to morality and decency.

The same is true for COVID-19. In every European country, there is a grown up debate about balancing health and safety with the need to reopen the economy. The American left, meanwhile, has condemned even the idea of such balancing as racist, classist, colonialism, what have you. The left greeted travel bans—which countries from Germany to New Zealand to Denmark have imposed to great effect—as manifest racism and xenophobia. They’re not talking about reopening, as Europe is already doing, but sheltering in place through the rest of 2020. The right, meanwhile, is shouting “give me liberty or give me death.” There is no trust because everybody is crazy, and everybody hates each other, and we should give up being one country and disband the union already.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#397

Post by Broken_Hippo » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

cpwright wrote: post #373

techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Sweden is not all roses in terms of personal liberty either. You must send your children to public schools, at the risk of losing them; even during a pandemic. In the United States, home schooling is an option if you do not want to send your children to public schools. https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-swed...

First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage.

It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows for homeschool, there should be robust oversight, which in most states, there isn't.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#398

Post by nonford150 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #265

techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany, where people have sufficient trust in their government... I'm a bit hesitant to compare to either of them because I can't read the local news. That being said, didn't Sweden go with a lockdown-lite policy? The Sweedes do have the freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to their liberty. EDIT And the lockdowns are threatening something like 26…

There appears to be much hand-wringing over what a upper level government may do. Why not cede such power to lower level jursdiction where those conditions are mostly closely monitored?

Locally, I see city and county governments taking a tack of making slightly differing decisions regarding what to open and keep closed. For example, my city is keeping parks and playgrounds closed; the county is doing the opposite? Why? each other's data shows the historical use trends and such data plays a large part in making reasonable, responsible descisions.

BTW, I'm in Georgia (US state); while the national media makes it out like we're backwoods country idiots, our local governments are very effective in making reasonable choices. Plus the vast marjority of folks are wearing masks and self-distancing. Most people aren't stupid. They only want the freedom to start their lives back up, plus not depend on the state and national governments for their very survival.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#399

Post by paulryanrogers » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

Press2forEN wrote: post #388

mehrdadn wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at the risk of asking a dumb question: why aren't protesters demanding e.g. more economic aid instead of a reopening? It's not like giving money to people in this crisis is a taboo anymore... it was one thing both the Congress and the White House agreed on for once. And it's not like if everything reopens then they're going to be instantly back in business. A lot of people will still stay home anyway. Wouldn't it…

This goes back to the culture point OP made. Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living.

Fair enough. But if "earning a living" includes unprecedented risk to their community then priorities may need to be reconsidered. During world wars great sacrifices were made for the greater good, even when it disrupted ones plans for "earning a living".

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#400

Post by eropple » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

apostacy wrote: post #389

mehrdadn wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're ranting or just upset at all this or at the fact that HNers commenting are on topics that you feel they're disconnected from (though I'm sorry about your family's situation), but your reply is quite incoherent. I can't reply to every point, but I can't even make sense of the fact that you're calling me out for being so certain that reopening proposal comes with a lot of... un certainty in givin…

The cost of the shelter in place order is doing more harm than good. When the dust settles, I am convinced that more people will have died as a result. I'm on pretty solid ground here. The costs of poverty and economic collapse are arguably better researched than pandemics. And it is hard not to be disgusted by the attitude of many people on HN, who are least affected by this. Having some relatives in that part of th…

"Economic collapse" is, one, overstated, and two, not likely with functioning economic policy. The answer to this one really is actually simple. Just write the checks. "But but but debt--" Debt is denominated in our own currency and it's the reserve currency of the world, that debt is fucking fictional. Just write the checks. "But but but undeserving poors--" No. Just write the checks.

I realize, of course, I am shouting into the wind. I understand that it isn't actually about the economically underprivileged, because we'd write the checks. And it isn't actually about the Small Business Owner--service industry small business owner checking in, doing fine, thanks--being threatened, because we'd write the checks. It's about something much darker and much more mendacious and the rhetoric that is so readily adopted by useful idiots who want their haircuts or whatever.

We will have to come to grips with the understanding that in many parts of modern America it is more acceptable to have Grandma drown in her own goddamned lungs than it is to just write the checks.

And that is the downfall of civic society before all else.