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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#391

Post by Mirioron »

mason55 wrote: post #99
_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

> Unions, in my experience, exist to help keep mediocre, unmotivated employees employed. One has no incentive to excel, as promotions are based on years "served", much like prison. There is nothing inherent in unions that make them operate like that.

There is nothing inherent that makes dictatorships violent. Yet they are. But maybe there is something inherent that makes them violent after all? It's simply not obvious at a glance that they're going to be violent.

I'm not sure that there's nothing inherent in unions that makes them promote mediocrity. There could be - the fact that unions add more layers to the bureaucracy and slow things down could very well have the effect of promoting mediocrity.

Generally, if you want people to do the best work, then the people need to be motivated and they need to have as little friction as possible. Unions add friction. In a company where things work, unions would probably add friction and cause more mediocrity.

Note that I'm not saying that unions necessarily cause this, but I am saying that they might be a cause for it. Claiming otherwise with no supporting arguments isn't convincing.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#392

Post by dang »

qzx_pierri wrote: post #144
ditonal wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people on HN constantly claim that companies are right to consider “a false negative is better than a false positive”, act like insane interview gauntlets are normal and desired, AND claim that people can easily change jobs? It’s not true. I live in the SF Bay Area, have worked as a SWE for 10+ years including at top companies like Google, and changing jobs is NOT easy and I’m sick of the implication it is. Th…

You sound spoiled, but go off

Personal attacks will get you banned here. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the spirit of this site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#393

Post by nitrogen »

echelon wrote: post #3

I really don't understand this. A career in software is one of the most pampered and lucrative ones I can think of. Due to the shortage of software engineers, we can go anywhere and get a job instantly. The only downside I can think of is ageism, but then again, I have colleagues in their 50s and 60s where I work. But I suppose this isn't universal. (I'm in Atlanta and we have a lot of older workers. Age doesn't seem…

I don't understand it at all.

I'm kind of in the same boat, though I actually kind of lean toward some kind of organizing. Those I know who are members of a national union complain about the union spending most of its money on things unrelated to the employment of its members.

But at the same time professional organizations like the AMA and ADA seem to benefit their members (unfortunately sometimes at the expense of the public).

I think the questions to ask are what's the bigger picture? What is the framing used in the current discussion to limit our view of that bigger picture? Who is doing the framing?

I don't have answers there, but it definitely seems like there's some important hidden variable that is omitted from the framing of either side of this debate.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#394

Post by preinheimer »

apexalpha wrote: post #357
_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

This seems like a cartoonishly simple respresentation of what a union can do. Why would one have no incentive to excel? Our union creates entire promotion matrixes for excelling employees. Comparing it to a prison... Are you a worker or a shill for corporate?

I worked (years ago) for the UFCW as a worker at a grocery store. All of the union that was exposed to me as a part timer was:

- hours go out by seniority

- raises happen at set intervals regardless of quality of work

- that guy selling pot out of the backroom will be protected until they catch him stealing a rotisserie chicken

- 0.x% of my paycheck goes to the union.

- I got paid less, and received raises less often than I did when I worked at Walmart.

Now there's lots more to them then that, but they certainly failed to sell me on the concept as a teenager, despite having me as quite the captive audience.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#395

Post by pimmen »

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

A comment on #2 would also be that you should organize and enshrine your rights when you have the power, not when you're weak. Developers are powerful now, can possibly become weak later.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#396

Post by anarchodev »

toasterlovin wrote: post #367
anarchodev wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Being against advocating violence against a group is not the same thing as agreeing with that group. This is basic logic.

That's correct. Simply disagreeing with Nazis is ineffectual and is very common among those with sympathies toward them as a shield from criticism. I'd prefer to work with people who are actively opposed to them. Sorry if that wasn't clear somehow.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#397

Post by carapace »

exabrial wrote: post #9
jdkee wrote: post #7

“ I am opposing a social order in which it is possible for one man who does absolutely nothing that is useful to amass a fortune of hundreds of millions of dollars, while millions of men and women who work all the days of their lives secure barely enough for a wretched existence.” -Eugene Debs

Nobody at kickstarter is living a wretched existence.

Tech workers are better off, but still treated poorly by management:

"Apple and Google's wage-fixing cartel involved dozens more companies, over one million employees"

https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

The thing that gets me about Apple specifically is that they did this while sitting on huge cash reserves and being one of the top ten most profitable companies in the world, yet they still fucked over their own people to make more.

I used to think that, as a 733t programmer, I had no use for unions, but then this happened and showed that there's no particular reason to trust tech company management at all, at all. They'll screw you to make a buck and get a slap on the wrist if anything if they're caught.

Interview with Google and they will send you lovely little videos with folks sliding down banisters and such to show you how wonderful it is to work there. It won't mention the "wage-fixing cartel" that limits your job opportunities and take-home pay.

It's pretty sick when you think about it. I don't know it unions are the answer, it's complicated after all, but absolutely these folks are not your friends, and you should coe in with as much leverage as you can get if you want to work for "the man".

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#398

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

naiveprogrammer wrote: post #330
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible that some organizations have a high concentration of folks who have a particular viewpoint on unions, regardless of whether they're being treated poorly or not. For example, Vox's newsroom unionized, even though I would suppose that they are likely treated better than most journalists -- at least to the extent the business' economics allow. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with Kickstart…

> Vox's newsroom unionized, even though I would suppose that they are likely treated better than most journalists -- at least to the extent the business' economics allow. Better treatment also involves better pay. Being nice to your employee is not enough. Vox may treat employees nicely, but you'd be surprised how low they pay to their occasional writers who are scattered in a bunch of niche vehicles.

Do you have personal familiarity with their payment practices? Are the occasional (presumably non-employee) writers also part of the union? Do they get votes like full employees?

I mean the other thing is does vox really have much money to be folding into higher comp? I have always assumed that it's a break-even venture like most news media these days but I'd be interested to learn otherwise.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#399

Post by whalesalad »

erik998 wrote: post #188
whalesalad wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a contractor, I am happy to have absolutely nothing to do with unions.

You can be a contractor with your own S-corp and still get the same benefits as union members if you are in an industry that has union workers like SAG. https://www.wrapbook.com/how-to-set-up-a-loan-out-company/

> same benefits as union members if you are in an industry that has union workers like SAG

I have an LLC operating for tax purposes as an s-corp. I can't think of any benefits a union would give me that I couldn't otherwise get for myself.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#400

Post by wpietri »

zpallin wrote: post #376
calderarrow wrote: post #235

Coming from a public accounting background, I’ve seen a variety of businesses. Somewhat obviously, I’ve seen some be successful with unions and others be successful without, which makes sense, as unions are neither inherently good nor bad. They are a tool which can change the power dynamic and incentive structure of workers and employers throughout an organization, but there is nothing inherent about having a union t…

> Generally speaking for well run, ethical companies, whose management actively try to do the right thing, unions add unnecessary redundancy and bureaucracy. The only type of "well run, ethical companies" where unions are redundant are worker-owned cooperatives . Otherwise, an employer, regardless of how ethical they are, can never replicate the most critical aspect of unions: collective bargaining rights . Sure, an…

That's becoming my take as well.

I think the tech industry was, at least for a while, an exception here. Developers were so hard to get and retain that the power of individual workers did a lot to keep things sane. But I think that power is, for a variety of reasons, waning. If we want to keep our unusually good working conditions, and especially if we want to make sure our colleagues enjoy them as well, then I think collective action is going to become more and more necessary.

(For those wondering why, a key part is the intrinsic size difference. It's much easier to lose one employee than to lose your full-time job. This inherent power imbalance is easily exploited.)

For the next thing I start, I've been looking into worker- and member-owned co-op structures. It turns out some of my favorite businesses are run that way, from my local bakery (Arizmendi) to my favorite outdoor goods company, REI. My explorations are early yet, but I'm seeing a lot to be optimistic about. I think it's possible to combine the discipline of a value-for-money business with the mission orientation of a not-for-profit. For example, imagine if WhatsApp had been a worker- or member-owned co-op. If instead of selling to Facebook, they'd just kept making the thing they thought the world needed.

If this resonates with people, feel free to contact me on email or Twitter. Maybe we can get a mailing list together for further discussion.

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