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Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

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Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#391

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The problem is online social networks. There is no fix. Any medium supported by ads is toxic. This predates online social networks. Any news feed (recommenders) is intrinsically toxic. Such feedback loops are just outrage machines. It's highly doubtful that likes and ratings can be redeemed either. I'm fresh out of goodwill, so I don't care to try. So what's left? The graph. Maybe that could be useful. Meanwhile, it'…

Would a social network, where every post is moderated, have the same issues?

What do you mean by "every post is moderated" ?

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a social network, where every post is moderated, have the same issues?

Very good question. Moderation is the only known effective solution. Some times. FAANGs and others abandoned human moderation because it "doesn't scale". So what? When did we decide that scale was more important than civility? -- I also have questions. What is the feedback loop? For every medium, every style of communication? How do we break those loops into discrete steps? Then where can we add friction? To slow dow…

Just a technicality, but a "positive feedback loop" is probably the very thing that you might want to avoid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#393
post #33

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ActivityPub is a horrible protocol, and not decentralized. Neither of you know what you're talking about, and not even the people working on AP like AP!

From my viewpoint the problem with ActivityPub and Mastodon is that they copied twitters flaws: public by default. There's a reason why people stick with Facebook, go to WhatsApp, Telegram and what not: most of us don't want to communicate publicly all the time.

Facebook Messenger, you mean ? I guess that most Facebook groups are public ?

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#394
post #216

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What's the difference between decentralised and federated?

Federated has some, perhaps different, individual or organization in charge of each server to which users are able to connect. There may be hundreds of different individuals and companies hosting and controlling different servers. All of which could either choose to communicate with each other, or not. Each of these servers would have, perhaps, millions of users who would then be beholden to the regulatory whims of t…

> In a completely decentralized architecture, every client would also be a server. [...] There is no good example of this architecture out there right now.

BitTorrent ? Git ? Bitcoin ? (They can also become centralized if there's a will, see Pirate Bay / Github / MtGox.)

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good question. Moderation is the only known effective solution. Some times. FAANGs and others abandoned human moderation because it "doesn't scale". So what? When did we decide that scale was more important than civility? -- I also have questions. What is the feedback loop? For every medium, every style of communication? How do we break those loops into discrete steps? Then where can we add friction? To slow dow…

Just a technicality, but a "positive feedback loop" is probably the very thing that you might want to avoid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback

Ya, suboptimal phrasing.

I mean in contrast to a negative feedback loop. Socially, negative or positive denotes impact. Virtuous vs vicious cycles.

Suggestions for better phrases?

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t know, that question is apples and oranges different. Twitter is creating a syndicated public one-to-all feed system; Email is a syndicated private one-to-many feed system. The public/private difference cannot be discarded and makes your question unrelated to my statement. I encourage you to pursue a top-level thread about your concern instead, so that it’s not disregarded as a reply to mine.

Email lists are not private if you choose to sign up for one and post to it, the same way Twitter is not private if you choose to sign up and post to it. Email lists are very similar to Usenet which was the precursor to all these social media sites.

Apples can be orange in certain breeds or lighting conditions, but that doesn’t make them oranges.

Twitter is not equal to an email list. They share certain aspects but they are significantly dissimilar in UI, approach, social perception (by participants and by others), and publication. M Twitter has not replaced mailing lists, and mailing lists continue to operate effectively.

Twitter is an electronic billboard that anyone with an app can post content to, and everyone can easily see it and do the same. Mailing lists are a town hall meeting inside a building: you can see them if you like, but participation from bystanders is quite rare and is often frowned upon or openly prohibited by the meeting’s coordinators.

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a social network, where every post is moderated, have the same issues?

What do you mean by "every post is moderated" ?

One or more human moderators are paid to review every post and comment before they’re published, making an accept/reject decision using criteria.

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a social network, where every post is moderated, have the same issues?

Very good question. Moderation is the only known effective solution. Some times. FAANGs and others abandoned human moderation because it "doesn't scale". So what? When did we decide that scale was more important than civility? -- I also have questions. What is the feedback loop? For every medium, every style of communication? How do we break those loops into discrete steps? Then where can we add friction? To slow dow…

Google decided scale was more important than civility when they positioned text search - Pagerank - as a competitor to curation, rather than as a beneficiary of curation.

We used to have curated content indexes with human moderators guiding them - in print, Yahoo/DMOZ, AOL keywords, web rings, LiveJournal. Those required significant human labor compared to algorithmic text searching, and were not able to scale as rapidly as content creation tools did.

Was that lack of scaling a problem? No, not necessarily. Some percentage of people enjoy curation (thus Pinterest) and we could have celebrated their efforts and given them top billing in search.

Instead, we “democratized” search by harvesting all of those human rankings and feeding them into a machine algorithm that produces seemingly better-than-human results. Unfortunately, in doing so they did not highlight whose curation led to content being shown, and so curation became less popular over time.

Unfortunately, that curation is what led to Pagerank being so valuable. Without it, spam and liars and malicious activities have infected all “search” and “ranking” systems. Without human curation distinguishing “valuable” from “unevaluated”, search does not scale either.

We did society great harm when we sidelined curation, and no amount of machine-learning algorithms will heal that wound.

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#399

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> I'd take Matrix with all^wmost its flaws over ActivityPub protocol-wise, which flaws are currently the most egregious from your pov? (i.e. `all - most = ?`) (And if any are security issues, please chuck them to security@)

I'll just pick one. Matrix is resource-heavy, even in the best of times. There is a confluence of smaller contributing factors, and several effects on both its usability and developer/platform friendliness. Consider this anecdote of the overhead of sending the message "hi" as a baseline: in Matrix, this takes about 1KiB on average after all is said and done in JSON (and varies, unfavorably). So to over-simplify, that…

So i think the summary is that the SS API needs to support alternative encodings (and thus signings) than JSON. Totally agreed; as you know we've already been experimenting with compact representations including CBOR (https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100-bps-barr... etc) which applied both to CS & SS API, which took the ratio down massively. However, we fudged it there by disabling the hashes entirely (given it was on a trusted private network). So from my pov Matrix is not remotely tied to the crappy HTTPS+JSON transport for S2S API in the long term, and it's only a matter of time before someone concretely proposes something better.

Re: Twitter funding a team to develop an open standard for social media

#400

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well it would solve problems for all the people who really do want to use a different / better social network or chat app but cant get their friends to switch too, killing the idea on arrival. that would change perception of social media, because it'd allow every host-site could be distinct to their targeted users' qualities as a group, but maintain connections to everyone in their lives. i mean, you arent really say…

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I'm skeptical that whatever "open standard" Twitter is working on will achieve that utopian future you're dreaming of. In practice, I think the vast majority of people won't even know it exists and will continue to exclusively use their preferred platform (Twitter, Facebook, whatever) despite all the issues with it. The idea of being able to move all of your content to another social netw…

yeah i mean honestly you're probably right. But in reality, the whole point of advocating for something that skeptics call "utopian" isn't to achieve that specific utopia per se. IT is to make improvements towards that "utopia". Like for example, if this social media interoperability and open standard world is our utopia, that would rely on having at least a framework for inter-network communication and migration from one to another.

What im saying is you probably never get to the utopia, but maybe building some of the requirements for that utopia will be beneficial in an ever imperfect world.

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