Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#391

Post by sangnoir » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

odkamkfn wrote: post #273

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you reject the entire concept of gentrification or is there something about this particular instance you have trouble understanding?

Not the parent poster, but I certainly reject the concept of gentrification, or at least reject it as something to be avoided.

> I certainly reject the concept of gentrification

What do you feel about non-resident Chinese nationals investing in real-estate in your city & driving up prices? I noticed HN tends to be ok with gentrification if it's done by well-paid geeks, but not when the same group gets priced-out.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#392

Post by dx034 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

stakhanov wrote: post #336

blablabla123 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely positive, although I'm also slightly disappointed. I think the original plan was to build it near Dresden. That would have been quite a signal, but on the other hand it might be good for it to be successful to have it connected with the metropolitan region Berlin/Brandenburg.

One important difference between Brandenburg and Saxony that I'm guessing may have played a role: There is a component of the corporate tax called "Gewerbesteuer" which, in Brandenburg, is set at city-level and differs widely from city to city, whereas in Saxony it is high across the board. My guess would be that there must have been a mayor somewhere in Brandenburg that made them an offer that no mayor in Saxony cou…

It's set at a city/regional level in all of Germany, there are just very few areas that offer very low taxes. Those tend to be close to large cities to get companies to move headquarters out of the city. Hamburg and Frankfurt also have areas with one of the lowest tax rates just outside of city limits (not sure if Munich has one).

In the end, I'm not sure if it makes such a big difference, other incentives, land prices and availability of talent probably outweighs this.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#393

Post by natch » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

kwhitefoot wrote: post #232

natch wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With no carburetors, alternators, starter motors, fuel pumps, fuel filters, oil filters, oil leaks, gas leaks, exhaust buildup, spark plugs, timing belts, radiators, head gaskets, mufflers, rings, manifolds, belts... and with brake pads that last forever... it's significantly less maintenance. And Teslas are not designed to milk the consumer for repairs over the years; they are designed to convince consumers that ele…

> and with brake pads that last forever. Not true if you live in an area where the roads are salted in the winter. Then they don't last any longer than on an ICE car unless you reduce or turn off regenerative braking. I had to have two replaced at the last service because of rust for just that reason and the car is only four years old (Model S). Tesla's advice was to reduce regen in the winter so that the brakes get…

Yes exception for very cold weather when regen is limited. Not so much to do with road salting, just use of brake pads versus non use, although salt could help cause rust to disks, not pads, which could in turn affect pads. But yes certain conditions may vary.

> Then they don't last any longer than on an ICE car unless you reduce or turn off regenerative braking.

This makes no sense. Reducing or turning off regen would make brake pad wear worse, not better. As an owner I assume you know your stuff so typo maybe?

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#394

Post by h3half » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

roomey wrote: post #305

vertex-four wrote: post #287

Watching a SV company suddenly have to deal with German workers' rights (think: unions, significant protection from being fired without cause, rights to paid holiday and enforced maternity leave, even workers' councils which have representation at a management level) is going to be hilarious.

I get you are joking, but there are two points that I would like to raise: There are many, many SV companies with large offices in parts of the world with very strong workers rights. I work in one of these. There is no problem, other then I'm not expected to work weekends and be on-call at unreasonable hours. If this is required I would need to be compensated for it. Secondly; perhaps I am reading into this, but I ge…

>Having protection from "right to work" means you can voice an opposing opinion without fear.

I assume you mean "at-will employment"?

Right-to-work laws, in the US, are laws saying that employees cannot be forced to join a union as a prerequisite to employment.

At-will employment laws, again in the US, are laws saying that employees can be terminated for any or no reason, except for a list of specific reasons like race, sex, age, religion, and probably a few others. Unless there's some kind of employment contract, which the majority of jobs in the US don't have.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#395

Post by bakuninsbart » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

romanovcode wrote: post #237

iagooar wrote: post #168

It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour drive away and has a large pool of very talented and experienced engineers. So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gent…

Brandenburg is one of the poorest regions in Germany. Berlin as a city brings negative GDP to country. I think they can just get it for (relatively) cheap there and that would be the main reason.

What you are trying to say is that the average GDP per capita of Berlin is lower than the average of Germany, thus having an overall negative effect on the per capita numbers for Germany. In this, Berlin stands alone among capitols. Usually, capitols are major "benefits" to their respective countries GDP per capita numbers.

But the statistic I assume you are referencing is a few years old, and Berlin has been the fastest growing state in Germany for quite a while now, a development that is still increasing. The numbers for 2019 aren't out yet, but I assume that at this point, Berlin is exactly average in per capita terms for Germany.

Why Berlin has been an outlier for capitols is quite obvious: It has only been Germanys capitol for a bit less than 30 years, and before that was divided.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#396

Post by dx034 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #378

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some background for the non-German readers: Within Germany there's still a very noticeable divide between east and west, with average waegs, for example, being considerably higher in the west. This goes back to the different ways the two regions were managed after WWII. So when a big (and presumably well-paying) company is going to create lots of jobs in the country, whether this is in an eastern or a western state i…

In socioeconomic terms the north-south divide is much more pronounced than the east-west divide. Politically, east-west is obviously dominant.

That's a bit skewed by the fact that most of Eastern Germany is also part of Northern Germany. I don't doubt that there is a north-south divide, but the industrial divide is still mostly West-East. In Eastern Germany, there was little manufacturing capacity at reunification which still shows effects today. Other parts of Northern Germany have been strongholds of car manufacturing for >50 years (most notably VW and Siemens).

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#397

Post by agent008t » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

agent008t wrote: post #339

mellosouls wrote: post #322

The Brexiteers scoffing at "Project Fear" and crowing about the uppity Europeans begging us for our (UK) car business have been strangely quiet on this one.

To be fair: 1. Brexit hasn't happened yet. I.e. UK has not been able to introduce policies that would make it a lot more competitive and friendly for business than the EU/Germany, make it friendlier for international talent, which is one of the opportunities created by Brexit. 2. We do not know what would have happened had Parliament and civil service been more positive and cooperative on Brexit. It could be a self-f…

Could the downvoters please explain the downvoting?

Are you arguing that there is no scenario under which Brexit could make Britain a more attractive place for business than the EU or Germany?

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#398

Post by dx034 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #384

vertex-four wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m outside the SV bubble for the most part, the “joke” if there was one was that Tesla is going to have serious culture clash if they try to treat their German workers like their workers elsewhere, and I’m going to be reading about the resulting court cases for years.

Rumour has it that Amazon has a dedicated judge at the labour court in Munich. Just the existance of such a rumour is telling you a lot.

Because of their warehouse operations nearby or other functions? I always thought they treat people in their offices better than their warehouses?

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#399

Post by Tomte » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

dx034 wrote: post #396

Tomte wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In socioeconomic terms the north-south divide is much more pronounced than the east-west divide. Politically, east-west is obviously dominant.

That's a bit skewed by the fact that most of Eastern Germany is also part of Northern Germany. I don't doubt that there is a north-south divide, but the industrial divide is still mostly West-East. In Eastern Germany, there was little manufacturing capacity at reunification which still shows effects today. Other parts of Northern Germany have been strongholds of car manufacturing for >50 years (most notably VW and Si…

Well, basically it is because the strong industrial base is in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#400

Post by bakuninsbart » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

mstipetic wrote: post #376

jashmatthews wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you see it lacking? Berlin already has a lot. Just many of the "startup scene" aren't really aware of stuff like: Mozilla and HPI (Oracle JVM research) doing cutting edge work. Ableton and Native Instruments as world leaders in niche but influential software. Car2Go and Coup with major financial backing from Mercedes and Bosch. Tons of small seed-stage companies funded by the great smaller VCs here. ECB centr…

Well I am a part of the Berlin startup scene, so I have personal experience there, completing a fundraising attempt myself. I'm not saying there is no tech happening in Berlin, I just don't think that Car2Go and Coup are good examples of startups. They are actually perfect example of the German mentality in investing in startups - fairly secure plays which they can understand. As far as early stage investments compan…

Urbansportspass is a great example of a german startup: They have steady growth, good revenue flows, a great app and content customers.

I feel like in recent years the startup scene in Berlin has gone rather off rails, with obviously flawed projects getting funding. The truth of the startup scene is that >99% of projects are pretty bad, and never deserved to leave the brainstorming phase in the first place.