In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#391

Post by rdtwo » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #343

chrisrogers wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Tokyo, for that matter. That's about as urban as you can get on Earth, with none of the 'grittiness' that so many West coast city-dwellers seem to think is inherent to cities. And in a comparable democracy, no less.

This is a pretty important point. Everything wrong with big American cities is normalized. If you don't like it, you're told to just go to the suburb. But it's all solvable and are usually consequences of policies as well as cultural problems. Many cities in the world just don't have these problems.

Suburbs are how America does segregation and separate but equal legally. We have “cities” next to major urban centers that can keep all their taxes dollars locally and shift their problems to urban centers. If you live in a nice neighborhood in the city of Seattle a good chunk of your money goes to fund poor parts of town and the homeless industry. Half a mile away the neighboring town keeps all its money for the local school and sends its homeless people to Seattle.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#392

Post by LifeLiverTransp » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

npo9 wrote: post #209

ianai wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“some would prefer to see the police cart drug users off to jail to get them out of the way” (article) It seems like creating housing projects for these people would be cheaper and more beneficial to society than increasing the prison population. I’d like to see something like dorms with shared restrooms, cafeterias, and such facilities. It’d create work and demand locally while keeping the streets clean.

I am anti housing projects. To me, creating a housing projects is like sweeping the problem under the rug. It concentrates poverty and crime into the area in/around the projects.

You can not do partial solutions here. Housing projects will be demolished (cables ripped out by methheads searching for copper).. if there are no constant drugsupply + safe injection, this approach has to fail.

Implement stuff like this half-hearted and you only rile up the tough on crime crowd without results.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#393

Post by rdtwo » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

redisman wrote: post #128

nostromo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's better now than it was during the worst crime wave in American history -- the 1980s." You're not wrong, but you're also not setting a very high bar. I think it's important that cities be safe, livable places. Seattle still is, for the most part. But ask some of your younger, single female friends where they will and will not go at night, and you may be surprised that it includes a large number of neighborhoods.

I'm a married 30s man and I wouldn't go to many Seattle downtown neighborhoods at night.

I think he means most places south of downtown

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#394

Post by blackflame7000 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

eldridgea wrote: post #299

rayiner wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm anti-incarceration for moral reasons, but it's not clear to me that there is a definitive consensus that incarceration does not work. See: https://www.nber.org/digest/jan02/w8489.html > "Annual expenditures of approximately $10 billion on drug incarceration almost pay for themselves through reductions in health care costs and lost productivity attributable to illegal drug use, even ignoring any crime reductions a…

I'll definitely admin that I'm interpreting the data to fit their own political/moral views but the conclusion "10 billion on drug incarceration almost pay for themselves through reductions in health care costs and lost productivity" seems that economically the difference in incarcerating addicts and providing them healthcare is negligible. If the economic difference is negligible then what reason is there for incarc…

The issue is that while they are trying to break the addiction they often relapse and because drugs are expensive and also not conducive to holding a job there is a non-negligible percent of people that would continue to break into cars and steal things to pay for their habits. If they aren't hurting anyone ok fine let them go the rehab route first, but if they demonstrate they are a danger to society then they need to be separated until they cure their addiction. I think we should also reduce the sentencing for drug crimes as often they are overly punative.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#395

Post by sleepybrett » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

TheHypnotist wrote: post #254

chrisdhoover wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bollocks, overall more people are rising out of poverty

Tell that to those forced out by skyrocketing housing costs a la San Francisco, and as I've come to understand, parts of Seattle.

(Most of Seattle)

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#396

Post by UnpossibleJim » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #233

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle loves to pass new taxes that are "supposed" to go towards certain things (and do for a year or two), but then end up in a general fund. Just like the tobacco tax, the alcohol tax and the marijuana tax. These were all supposed to go towards roads and schools, at one point and, yet didn't.

Is there even a legal structure allowing a government to pass a tax with a particular outflow, in a way that prevents said government from later deciding to redirect the tax's revenue to a different outflow? Like how a trust works for private citizens, but at an organizational level?

You can earmark tax dollars for particular spending, but Seattle has a habit of only doing said earmarks for 2 to 3 years before going into the general fund. I'm not sure if you can make those earmarks indefinite, to be honest.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#397

Post by rdtwo » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

Gaelan wrote: post #159

empath75 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people say things like this, I do have to wonder if they've ever lived in a city before. Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. There is just a certain amount of crime and drug use that will always exist in the big city. No amount of 'tough on crime' policing will make it go away.

Honest Q: how is crime rate measured? If police stopped enforcing laws against, say, shoplifting, and the rate of shoplifting did not change, would the crime rate go down?

Yeah since drug use is no longer a crime and since possession is legal the number of crimes is down. We could decrease the numbers even more if we fired the remaining police officers.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#398

Post by rdtwo » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #330

sukilot wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If crime is determined by victimhood: > public intoxication not an "actual crime" > public camping seeking shelter is not an "actual crime" > shop lifting is an "actual crime" > harassment is an "actual crime"

By that logic, burning down a forest, defacing a public work of art, building a personal home in the middle of a public park, and dynamite fishing a coral reef are not "actual crimes" either. A good definition of "crime" needs to be able to include action that indirectly harm a large number of potential people. Otherwise, you are powerless to address the tragedy of the commons.

In Seattle if those were performed by a drug user they wouldn’t be.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#399

Post by dymk » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

itsyaboi wrote: post #230

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Seattle being Seattle it is not populated by the kind of people who will pack heat. That's like saying "well Austin is part of Texas so why doesn't everyone wear a cowboy hat and go hog hunting on the weekend." Both those cities are basically San Fransisco demographically speaking. And just because concealed carry legal doesn't mean the process is constructed in such a way that normal people can actually do…

Isn't Washington a open carry state?

Doesn’t really mean much when open carrying immediately results in the police showing up/inciting panic.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#400

Post by cameronc56 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

I currently live in pioneer square, close to one of the homeless shelters. Here are some of the things I have seen in the last 1.5 years:

1. People openly shitting on the sidewalk.

2. Ambulances carrying away a junkie that overdosed and died in a doorwell

3. Having to push a sleeping person out of the way of the doorwell just to leave my apartment

4. random screaming, for hours almost every night

5. my girlfriend gets constantly harrassed

6. I puked in the alley our moving truck was in while moving in because there was so much human feces.

7. A naked person crabwalking down a hill

8. someone ripped a metal garbage can off of its stand, grabbed a vodka bottle that was inside it and threw it at a passing car, breaking their window

9. mass vandalism and theft of rental bicycles.

10. someone throwing those rental bicycles into the street

11. one homeless person attempted to steal a backpack from another homeless person having a panic attack or overdose WHILE A COP WAS HELPING THEM.

12. bike theft in broad daylight on 1st avenue

13. drug deals and needles. I have a picture of an abandoned backpack with dozens of needles sprawled around it

14. someone got shot at the 7/11 at night

15. a month later, there was broken glass from a bullet hole at the cherry street cafe.

16. someone using their gun as a pillow

17. tent camping, where i have to walk into the street to get around them.

18. people wandering around in the streets aimlessly, almost getting hit by cars.

19. ive been harrased in restaurants by homeless people that come in and want my food.

20. shopping carts full of trash, parked on the sidewalk every day.

Seattle decriminilizing drugs is one thing. But decriminilizing these kinds of petty crimes has turned pioneer square into something shameful and dangerous.

In my opinion, the city should not decriminilize drugs until AFTER the facilities (rehab and involuntary mental health institutions) are in place.

The non-drug related crimes should not be tolerated either way, and what Dan Satterberg prosecutes/charges with regards to repeat offenders is criminal in itself. His personal agenda is putting the public at risk and he should resign immediately.